Brett Lee

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Welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

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I'm delighted to welcome my
guest today, Mr. Brett Lee.

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So Internet Safe education
creator Brett Lee worked as a

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Queensland Police officer for 22
years, sixteen of those as a

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detective, predominantly in the
field of Child Exploitation.

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In his last five years of
service he was a specialist in

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the field of undercover Internet
Child Exploitation

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investigations.
Brett has been personally

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involved in the online
investigation, arrest and

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prosecution of numerous
offenders whose medium for

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praying on children is the
Internet.

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Brett has delivered training to
members of law enforcement

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agencies around Australia
including NSW, S, Australian W,

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Australian Police and Australian
Customs.

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Within his own police service,
he was involved in the training

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of plainclothes police through
detective training and sexual

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crimes courses in online Child
Exploitation investigations.

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Further to Brett's experience,
he's completed the FBI Advanced

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Internet Investigations course
and has worked with the FBI

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Innocent Images Unit in
Maryland, USA, the Department of

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Homeland Security Cyber Crimes
Center in Virginia, and the San

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Jose Internet Crimes Against
Children Task Force in

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California.
He's also attended and spoken at

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conferences around Australia and
the world.

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Welcome, Brett.
Great to have you here today.

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Thank you, Kevin.
It's great to be here.

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So before we talk about and sort
of get into the details of

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Internet safety and education,
can you briefly walk us through

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your journey from policing into
the work that you do today?

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Yeah, of course, when I started
policing, it was a very, very

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different world.
And technology evolved during my

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policing career and probably the
last five years that I was a

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police officer, I really got
involved heavily in it.

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I was part of a as a Detective
Sergeant.

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I was part of an undercover
Internet team and our job was to

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assume the fictitious identities
of children, go onto the

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Internet as it was then, and
locate, identify and arrest

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child sex offenders who who
have, of course, always been a

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part of our community.
But we're now utilizing the, you

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know, the capabilities of the
Internet to connect with an

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offend against children.
So in doing that job, it got me

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a very unique, you know, very
unique look at technology.

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Some of the things we don't see
the world behind the screen.

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So I started working in that in
Brisbane, in Queensland,

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Australia, I started working as
an undercover detective and I

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did that for five years until,
until I left.

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So like I said, it gave me a
very unique insight not only to

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how technology works, but the
human aspect to it as well.

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It sounds like incredible must
be an incredibly difficult work

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and challenging work.
What kind of initially drew you

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into that?
Look, it was an interest in

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technology that I was aware of
the unit that had just started

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to do it.
So I thought this is something

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that, you know, I had that
passion for protecting children

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because I came from the Child
and Sexual Assault Unit,

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Brisbane Police Headquarters.
So I, I sort of wanted to expand

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on that a bit further.
And of course, like a lot of

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people, it's the curiosity, you
know, of that online world has

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capabilities, its limitations.
And I noticed a lot of people

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around me had really no idea
what we were doing or, or what

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it really meant.
And during the podcast, I'll

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probably outline some of that.
Yeah.

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So I, I just applied and I got
selected and I was part of that

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unit.
And of course we did extensive

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training in relation to it
together.

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Collect, store and put evidence
in a format where it's

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admissible to court.
Yeah, it was sort of.

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I felt it was like a natural
progression.

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And, and was there a particular
moment, you know, when you were

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coming to perhaps the end of, of
your service as a detective

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there when you realise that that
education and, and rather than

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on the enforcement investigation
side was it could be really

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powerful way for, you know,
protecting children or children

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to protect themselves.
That's a really good question

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because that is just spot on.
That's exactly what happened.

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So, you know, we were only
limited by time we were

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arresting child sex offenders
from the Internet every single

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day of the week.
The and and we sort of realized

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that we can't arrest our way out
of this problem.

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But what was really the trigger
for me is our officer in charge

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requested we go to a school and
deliver a cyber safety

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presentation, which I'd never
done before to a group of year

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10 female students at an all
girls school.

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And we just went to the school
and we sort of outlined in, in,

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you know, I'm very accessible,
you know, and acceptable terms

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to year 10 girls who are around
15 years of age, what our job

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entailed and what we were
witnessing.

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And the level of, and, and I
don't say this in a derogatory

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way, the level of ignorance, not
only to, well, not really how

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technology works, but to the
lack of life skills.

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And I can remember 115 year old
girl said to me, or do people

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really want to do that to other
people, to 15 year old girls?

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That sort of blew me away.
And I thought, well, I just

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assumed you knew there were
people out there who were going

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to harm you in a number of
different ways.

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And that's when I realized how
vulnerable children can be, not

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because they can't use
technology, because they have a

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different view of the world that
they didn't have our allied

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skills.
So, you know, very accepting and

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very trusting.
And I thought, well, this, this

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is the key.
If we can remove potential

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victims, we can make them
smarter and remove the victims.

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Even though there may be
predators online, there's no way

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they can accomplish their, you
know, their illegal, you know,

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the things I want to do that are
illegal.

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So that really, really gave me
the idea that, you know,

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education is the key,
enforcement is very important

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and it is ineffective in all.
It is effective in a lot of ways

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where we need to remove these
people, they need to be

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accountable, they need to be
identified.

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But to make that real community
change, it's really the

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education.
So, you know, talking about like

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that, that first, you know,
presentation and and education

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session for the for the kids in
your subsequent ones.

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Talk us through a little bit the
kinds of things that you cover.

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What do you and I've been lucky
enough we were just chatting

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before to have you in in one of
the schools I was in and talked

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to our kids and it was
incredibly powerful and eye

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opening for those kids.
Could you run us through a

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little bit about kind of what
you're covering and what you

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share with them?
Because it does shock a lot of

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the kids in not in a like a like
an explicit way or an over the

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top way, but it really shocks
them in terms of the kinds of

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things that are that are
possible and that other people

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want to do like you said.
Yeah, look, exactly.

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Messages should never be
designed to create fear.

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But I think it's important that
everyone in our community knows

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the world they're in.
They know the truth because

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that's what gives them the
passion and reason to know what

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role they need to play.
Whether it's a child protecting

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themselves, whether it's a
teacher, an educator or a parent

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playing a role to protect
children, people really need to

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know the dangers that exist.
And I think a lot of there are

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people and there's, there's
areas in our community that I, I

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don't think give kids the credit
they deserve that, you know,

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let's shelter them from these
days from the knowledge that

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these dangers exist.
I don't agree with that.

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I think they're quite resilient.
I think when young people know

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there's a reason why these
things are being put in place,

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you know, that that's why
they're being put in place.

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So I think that's, I think
that's important that we, we

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highlight, you know, the dangers
that exist, not to say any

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particular people or not to say
the internet's bad, but these

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dangers are real because it's
the truth.

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So how I would deliver my
messages to children was first

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to what you said, in an
acceptable, accessible way,

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depending on what age group it
is.

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You know, we deliver the primary
schools like kids right down in

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year 1/2, right up to year 12.
But yeah, we don't over

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sensationalize.
We just let them know, you know,

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our experience and the dangers
that do exist.

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And we just go through the
strategies in how to avoid those

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dangers while still being a part
of the online world, letting

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them know it's not going to be
perfect.

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You could have issues, but is
the skills to fix those issues

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and move on.
This is what's open to you to

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make that world safe.
These are the things you should

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avoid.
So, you know, letting them know

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the dangers that exist, how to
avoid those dangers.

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And if they have problems,
having the skills and sometimes

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the courage to take action to to
fix those problems.

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And I really think it's as
simple as that because I say to

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parents, what are we trying to
achieve here?

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Not kick kids off the Internet,
but for them to be able to, you

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know, experience all the great
stuff whilst reducing risk.

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And I don't think we need to
overcomplicate it.

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And particularly for young
people, they need something that

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you know they can grasp onto,
that they can action, they can

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use.
I remember from some of your

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workshops that you give you
share some specific examples of

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what of kind of how kids can
find themselves getting into

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strife and getting into some
trouble.

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And before they know it, they're
kind of in, in, you know, pretty

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deep into things.
And it can be hard for for

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either kids or parents or
teachers who aren't, maybe

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aren't familiar with technology
as social media and some of the

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platforms that are out there to
know what what that kind of

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looks like and, and to recognize
maybe some of the signals or

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signs that, you know, they're
getting themselves into a

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difficult position with someone
maybe who's not, who's

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representing themselves as
someone who they're not.

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I'm wondering if maybe you could
share one or two examples from

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your experience of what that
kind of a situational process

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unfolds like.
Yeah, look, I because I live

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this every day and I I think
about it constantly.

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I, I really don't think the
human brain has been set up

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evolutionary wise or creation
wise to handle the nature of the

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online world in that the
Internet exists in our mind.

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So it's very hard We're we're
really seeing is believing and

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Amon tries to create scenarios
based on the information it

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receives.
And quite often, as you

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mentioned, that information may
not be accurate when we're using

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the Internet.
So it's quite hard to

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contextualize what's really
happening with technology.

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And there are people that will
take advantage of that.

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I've arrested hundreds of
adults, generally males.

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They're nearly always males who
are using technology to target

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children.
And my job was to pretend to be

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a child.
Every single person I arrested,

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I believe, believe that I was a
child.

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Beyond all that, I was a child
to them that was as real to them

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as someone walking around in the
street.

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How I achieved that was I told
him I was a child.

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I sent fake pictures as a child.
I told them what they wanted to

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hear, so they've been more
inclined to believe me and

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communicate with me.
And I spoke like a child.

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And that was enough for them to
believe that they knew who they

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were talking to.
Every single one of them, some

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of them were struggling to
comprehend when we arrested

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them, was struggling to
comprehend that that child

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didn't exist.
In their mind, that child was

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real.
Now, this is an adult person.

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Now, if we can transpose that to
young people, imagine the

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challenges that they're going to
have when looking at a screen,

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processing that information with
the developing brain, with life

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skills that aren't as developed
as us.

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Very trusting, accepting.
There's things they're going to

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really want out of life to
develop into who they believe

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they are.
They want to be accepted and as

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humans, we've all got needs and
vulnerabilities.

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And you know, some of the needs
and vulnerabilities I've

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identified that you and your
audience would know better than

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me being educators said they
want to be accepted.

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They want to move on to the next
level.

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They want to feel that there's
someone, they want to be famous.

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So they become very vulnerable
in relation to, you know,

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interacting with people online.
So really the only way we can,

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we can target this, if children
are going to be part of an

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online world, is to pass on, you
know, generic messages of

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substance.
It's to get young people to

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think.
I say to young people, the

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Internet only exists in one
place.

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It's in someone's mind.
And when someone makes a choice

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online, it's not because they
slipped.

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It's that bad that choice didn't
start in their fingertips, that

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bad choice or that choice didn't
start on the screen.

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It started here.
So that's what we have to work

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on.
Nobody online, no matter who

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they are, no matter how bad, no
matter how big, can make us make

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a choice.
That's always going to be us

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00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,280
chopping the key.
So we want our kids to think the

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right way so they know there's
choices I do and don't make.

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But that example of, you know,
those criminals say they just

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accept it, whatever I put on the
screen.

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And these were adult people and
you would assume they knew they

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were doing the wrong thing.
So you would assume they'd be on

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00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,600
the lookout for for, you know,
maybe a police officer doing

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this or someone not being who
they are.

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But none of them questioned it.
They just accepted it.

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So if we can, you know, really
target, you know, the mindset of

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00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,840
our children, which with some
basic generic messages, I, I

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think that's what's going to
empower them to be able to use

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the Internet.
Because like I said to parents,

254
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you can't be there 24 hours a
day.

255
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,120
Your role and a role as an
educator is to give kids

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everything they need to put them
in a position where they can

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00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:21,360
make the right voice themselves.
So what do you think?

258
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,960
From from your experience, what
does schools most commonly

259
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,920
underestimate about online risk?
Look like I think in a large

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00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,480
regard, one of my messages is
that the internet's public and

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00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,600
we know that, but in a large
regards in it's a very hidden

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00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,240
world.
So each person because it's up

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00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,080
here has their own experience.
And I think when, when adults

264
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,920
particularly, you know, law
abiding, responsible adults who

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00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,600
had the kids interest best at
heart, like parents and carers

266
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,360
and teachers, we assume that the
experience we have is similar to

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00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,320
the experience our children
have.

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00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,440
So I've had parents who have
said to me, oh, you know, I've

269
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,480
had a good time in Facebook.
My child's going to have a good

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00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,320
time in Facebook.
That's absolutely not the truth.

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00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,720
Because they're at a different
stage of their life.

272
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,480
They're looking to get different
things from it.

273
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,200
They're going to connect with
different people.

274
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They're not thinking the same.
They're not, they're they're for

275
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,880
the same purposes.
So I, I think we can

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00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,400
underestimate some of the, the
effects that are the screen that

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00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,400
technology, that interaction can
have on a young person, whether

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00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,440
predatory behaviour, whether
it's cyber bullying.

279
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,160
I have so many parents say to
me, but my kids were cyber

280
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,520
bullied that just delete it.
That just blocked that person.

281
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,360
They'd move away, which is
absolutely not the case.

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00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,960
Now, I've spoken of some very
clever psychologists, child

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00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,360
psychologists who say human
nature, particularly children,

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00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,760
they can't do that.
They're drawn to that content.

285
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,360
They want to see what's
happening.

286
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,320
They think the more they look at
it, the more they're going to be

287
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,960
able to put it into perspective.
But it just compounds the

288
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,360
negative effects.
But then we've got, you know

289
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,680
what We can self manage better
as well because their brains are

290
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,440
fully developed and children can
be very susceptible to

291
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:09,640
addiction, you know, to being
drawn to content that's outside

292
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,640
what we could consider as
normal, common, proprietary in

293
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,520
society, like language and how
to treat people and what has a

294
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,520
bigger effect on a young
person's mind.

295
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,640
So I'm never I'm never negative
when I talk to educators or

296
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,320
parents.
See, we didn't grow up in that

297
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,320
world as a young person being
exposed to it.

298
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,960
So we really don't know the
effects that we have.

299
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:38,000
So I think it's because also we
grew up in a world where the

300
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,400
dangers were generally physical.
Now they're hugely, potentially

301
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,720
hugely psychological.
And I don't think we really

302
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,680
understand the importance of,
you know, playing that role, but

303
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,040
educating the children or
understanding some of it, you

304
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,400
know, that the negatively life
changing issues that technology

305
00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,280
can potentially create.
Yeah.

306
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,000
And you bring up a good point
there when, you know, we were,

307
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,520
we were growing up, you know,
there was, you know, there

308
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,200
wasn't the Internet.
It wasn't really around that in

309
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,839
the way that it is now.
And but you know, those kind of

310
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:16,240
people who sought to do harm and
do the wrong thing, you know,

311
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,720
that was more of a in a physical
space.

312
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,720
I remember growing up in
Australia, there was a campaign

313
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,560
around stranger danger and
around safe houses.

314
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,800
You know, people would talk to
you about how to keep as a

315
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,440
child, how to keep yourself
safe.

316
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,560
That's signs to look out for
the, the things to be aware of

317
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,560
and then what to do.
So what does that, what's does

318
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,760
that advice look like for kids
these days in technology in

319
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,920
terms of, you know, what are the
things to look out for?

320
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,920
What are the signs?
And then what do you do?

321
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,240
If if you do recognize something
that doesn't look or feel right,

322
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,520
then what do you do?
Look, I think for a parent and

323
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,560
and a teacher, it's important to
use the the skills that you

324
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,480
already possess and not to let
technology slip under the radar

325
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,480
and make you believe that
because someone's behind a

326
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,440
screen, something's changed.
So all the dangers that were

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00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,800
presented to us in the physical
world and the systems that were

328
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,360
put in place to protect us
there, we should be thinking the

329
00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:17,000
same online.
The dangers are exactly the

330
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,880
same.
So you think, would it be OK for

331
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,720
someone to walk up to my child,
an adult, and asking for their

332
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,760
details down at the shopping
center?

333
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,440
If the answer is well, that
would be horrifying.

334
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,360
Of course not, because that's
not normal.

335
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,800
That's not OK.
They don't have that right?

336
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,880
We should be thinking the same
online.

337
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,800
Now we don't panic, but we want
to educate our children to that,

338
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,720
that it's not OK just because
someone's behind a screen.

339
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,400
So I think we think the same as
parents, we're very and as

340
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,160
educators, we, we look very
carefully at online contacts, no

341
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,960
matter who, because that's where
nearly all the problems exist.

342
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,920
I mean, a child may see
something that's disturbing, but

343
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,520
that's something that can be
managed and we can move past

344
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,160
that.
But if they're connected to

345
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,000
people online who for no reason
want to become part of their

346
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,600
life, want their personal
information, are promising to

347
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,360
give them things, I can
guarantee you having spent

348
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,600
thousands of hours communicating
with online child sex offenders,

349
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,760
that that is a person with I'll
intention because that's not

350
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,800
normal.
That's not OK.

351
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,440
There's no reason for that.
So again, we don't panic.

352
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,520
Is that person who they say they
are and they're just interested?

353
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,920
I don't know and I don't care
because they're not part of my

354
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,800
child's life, so they don't need
to communicate with them.

355
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,040
So looking for people who are
trying to get access, looking

356
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,360
for people who want to, who are
trying to pique our children's

357
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,400
interests because children are
very curious.

358
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:55,520
People who are interacting in a
sexualized way online as well.

359
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,800
That gives predators.
Predators do that for a number

360
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,560
of reasons.
One, they can identify a child

361
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,120
who's prepared to take risk.
It desensitizes the child and it

362
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:09,200
excites them, the predator.
So we we don't just dismiss

363
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,160
that.
We don't think, oh, this is just

364
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,960
young people, you know, talking
in a way that young people talk.

365
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,760
No, that that's not OK.
And the other thing is looking

366
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,480
at people who befriend their
children in public spaces.

367
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,360
Such as social media and gaming
sites and video sharing sites,

368
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,920
and then want to move our child
from there to start interacting

369
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,160
in a private messaging program.
So we want to remove private

370
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,280
relationships and friendships.
It's OK for kids to play games.

371
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,040
It's OK to inter interest
themselves or interact with

372
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,640
people online as long as they
treat them for who they are.

373
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,080
They're a stranger.
If that person walked up to me

374
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,160
in the street and asked me where
I lived, that's not OK.

375
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,520
Then it doesn't automatically
become OK when it's online.

376
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,000
And what I generally say is a
lot of parents and teachers

377
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,680
already have the skills they
need.

378
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,600
It's about trusting those
instincts.

379
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,600
I say to a parent, you may not
even know how to communicate.

380
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,960
You turn a computer on, but if
something inside you tells you

381
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,480
something's wrong, something is
wrong.

382
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,520
And generally starts with
conversation, of course.

383
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,920
So and I let parents and
teachers know you're not being a

384
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,600
bad parent.
You're not saying you don't

385
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,800
trust your kids.
You're saying you identify that

386
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,760
you don't trust the nature of
the world we live in and we want

387
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:32,000
our kids to feel safe.
So it's that, it's that personal

388
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,120
interaction online that's one of
the big things to look out for.

389
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,240
So you've been into hundreds,
probably thousands of schools

390
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,360
over, you know it, many, many
years.

391
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,520
What are some things that you
see when you go into a school

392
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,480
and you recognize this school
really gets it in terms of the,

393
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,360
the, the community or the people
in the school in terms of their

394
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:58,160
approaches to education around
online safety and those sorts of

395
00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:59,200
things.
What are, what are some of the

396
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,360
those key features where you
see, all right, well, this, this

397
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:04,560
school, this community is pretty
switched on in terms of how

398
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,840
they're approaching this stuff.
Look, things are changing and

399
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,760
people sort of didn't know the
nature of how to manage it in a

400
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,600
school.
I've been going into schools for

401
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,720
17 years and I've seen a lot of
change.

402
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,440
The first thing I, I noticed
when I go into a school

403
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,920
sometimes these, these times I
say, how's it going at school

404
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,320
with kids and technology?
The school, it says to me, look,

405
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,120
we deal with so many issues,
personal issues, self esteem

406
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,800
issues, anger issues,
interpersonal skills, consent

407
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,240
issues with our students.
And I say, well, how's this

408
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,920
happening?
Every single time?

409
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,600
The answer is the same social
media every single time.

410
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,200
They say it takes up 80% of
their time when it comes to

411
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,800
pastoral, when it comes to, you
know, looking after kids.

412
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,680
well-being social media, that's
the first one.

413
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,240
Now, where are they getting
access to this social media?

414
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:57,880
Not on school devices that they
used to learn.

415
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,480
It's on their own personal
devices.

416
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,680
Like I said, times are changing.
When I went in, when I was going

417
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,280
to school 17 years ago, not one
school in Australia had an

418
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,200
acceptable user policy when it
came to technology.

419
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,800
I think we assume that if we
give every teenager in the world

420
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,520
an Internet able device, they're
going to use it to learn, which

421
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,000
they didn't.
So I go into a school, first

422
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,720
thing I look for is a policy
that's ever evolving.

423
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:31,320
If they have an issue that
issue, the points they can take

424
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,680
from that are implemented into
the policy.

425
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,400
Now what's a policy?
It is rules.

426
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,880
And we have this in every single
aspect of our life.

427
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,560
The government doesn't even
trust me to drive my car at the

428
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,960
right speed.
They put a, they put a speed

429
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,440
limit in place, it's got a
penalty attached to it.

430
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,720
Policies are essential to let
people know where they stand.

431
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,000
So that's the first thing.
The second thing I've noticed in

432
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,160
the majority of schools I go to
now that one of the rules in

433
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,520
that policy is there is no
access to personal Internet

434
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,600
enabled devices in the school.
This is one of the biggest

435
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,560
things that is going to reduce
risks, right?

436
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,200
Download.
As an undercover detective, and

437
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,920
not everyone agrees with this,
but I can tell you this, I

438
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,280
never, ever understood this.
When I'd go into schools and I'd

439
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,480
see kids walking around on their
own devices, I'd say, oh,

440
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,600
they're allowed to do that.
Oh, yeah, well, they own it.

441
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,080
It's their device.
And you know what I couldn't

442
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,960
understand?
If someone walked up to the

443
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,040
fence at school and called a
student over and said, hey,

444
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,440
what's your name?
Where'd he go to school?

445
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,280
What's your address?
The school probably called the

446
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,800
police because that's not OK,
That's concerning.

447
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,800
But these students were walking
around at school with their own

448
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,240
device and they could be being
groomed by a child sex offender

449
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,760
on the school grounds under the
school's care without the school

450
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,080
knowing those personal devices.
The biggest problem is there's

451
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,000
no accountability.
It is a private world for them.

452
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,720
The other thing I thought you
could have students at school

453
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:09,640
bullying other students at
school and then that other

454
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,200
student may be so upset they
take their own life or there's a

455
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,080
fight.
I never understood why we as a

456
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,240
community would allow this.
They've said, oh, you know, we

457
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,080
trust the kids.
It's not about trusting our

458
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,720
kids.
It's about trusting the world.

459
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,480
It's about identifying that
sometimes young people will make

460
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,200
mistakes.
Sometimes those mistakes with

461
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,200
technology can be life changing.
And why do we go to school?

462
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,320
It's an educational environment.
Those those phones are personal.

463
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,040
That's what they're used for.
Kids don't generally don't use

464
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,320
those phones to learn.
They use it to have fun.

465
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,200
These are to watch videos, play
games and connect with other

466
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,040
people.
So schools who I see is really

467
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,000
starting to manage technology
are identifying and it's not

468
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,080
easy.
No one likes change.

469
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,080
No one likes to lose something.
And the first couple of years it

470
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,960
can be tricky to say, OK,
there's no personal devices at

471
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:06,720
school.
How a school chooses to manage

472
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,840
that, I think it's going to be
up to them because every school

473
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,400
is different.
Some schools manage a lot

474
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,840
better.
Some students hand them in, some

475
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,560
students.
Some schools say, OK, they got

476
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,240
to go in your lockers, you're
not allowed to touch them for

477
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,200
the day.
And then I would have a someone

478
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,640
who'd say, oh, but they can go
and get it.

479
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,440
Yeah.
So if they do, when they're

480
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,640
caught, there's a penalty.
Their parents are called, the

481
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,560
phone's taken, they get it back
at the end of the day.

482
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,880
Second offence, the parent has
to come down to the school to

483
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,360
collect the phone.
Third offence, internal

484
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:37,280
suspension.
So this is how we manage the

485
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,560
world because I say to parents,
when each child goes to bed, you

486
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,000
can't stop them coming out,
taking the car keys and go and

487
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,520
driving the car.
I said you'd get that's their

488
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,400
responsibility.
Yeah, I can do that, but I don't

489
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,800
do that.
And then when we can normalize

490
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,800
that, and it might take a few
years because not everyone's

491
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,160
going to be happy, particularly
if they've been able to use it,

492
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,680
it becomes the norm.
And there'll always be people

493
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,320
who do the wrong thing.
But it's about creating a

494
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,040
positive norm whereby the
majority of their community

495
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,760
complies.
So that's the other thing I've

496
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,400
seen where there's policy, the
policy has to be enforced.

497
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,920
There's only one thing worse
than no policy.

498
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,960
It's having a policy and not
enforcing it.

499
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,840
The next one is putting phones
and personal devices in their

500
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,560
place.
You're here to learn.

501
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,960
You're under our care.
If you have a problem, you come

502
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,080
to us.
It's enumerable.

503
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,480
The amount of issues that
personal devices, of course,

504
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,200
that I've heard the big one that
you as that you as a school

505
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,640
might have identified is that if
a child's having a problem at

506
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:42,920
school, they don't go to a
teacher.

507
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,720
They ring their parents when the
parent gets on to the school and

508
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,040
says what are you doing?
My child?

509
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,840
This is happening to my child.
So it causes more issues.

510
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,560
So getting those phones away,
trusting instincts, doing

511
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,480
educate our own education in
school with them.

512
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,400
There's so many great programs
out there now because I say to

513
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,880
parents in schools, we don't
tell the kids the good stuff.

514
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:08,760
No one's going to TikTok,
certainly not teach our kids how

515
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,360
to manage technology.
So look, the other things I

516
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:15,920
would of identified going into
schools, you know, having a

517
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,800
learning device with management
software so the school knows

518
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,240
what activities happening,
people know that someone's

519
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,520
watching, having that policy,
enforcing the policy, keeping

520
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,520
lines of communication open with
families and knowing that this

521
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,600
is a team effort.
We're all stakeholders here.

522
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,160
So and the education as well and
restorative practices, the

523
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:46,480
course, our staff identifying,
you know, that issues can be

524
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,280
created with the young, young
person.

525
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,440
And look, one of the big things
I had was, you know, most of

526
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,680
these issues and I'm not sure
exactly how your community there

527
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,600
works, but they're created at
home.

528
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,800
So, you know, how much of A role
should the school play?

529
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,760
The thing is, the issues are
created at home, but generally

530
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,840
they're bought into the school
and it affects the, you know,

531
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,240
the education, the well-being
involved students.

532
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,480
So again, each school needs to
manage it as best suits their

533
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,640
community.
But if they sort of grasp onto

534
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:23,440
those ideas, you know, I think
we're going a long way to to,

535
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,440
you know, young people being
able to use it in and out of

536
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,200
school.
You see, when they go into the

537
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,440
workplace, you know what we can
teach them as a school.

538
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,040
The internet's got rules.
I don't have to be have the

539
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,160
right to use my personal device
to check my social media while

540
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,560
I'm at work.
We're teaching them these skills

541
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,080
that if I have a problem, these
are the practices in place,

542
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,240
these are the solutions in
place, and I do this and I fix

543
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,760
my problem, never keep it to
myself, report it to a superior.

544
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,920
So I think we're really
benefiting children by not

545
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,160
getting them to think that when
I go into the workplace, I can

546
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,200
do whatever I want on my phone.
So there's a chance I'll have to

547
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,040
sign one of those documents when
they go into the workplace in

548
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,760
relation to I will comply with
the acceptable user.

549
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,760
Yeah.
And you brought up an

550
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,800
interesting point there just
before about partnerships at

551
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,960
home.
And, you know, different

552
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,960
jurisdictions and authorities
around the world as they relate

553
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,480
to education will have different
viewpoints on, you know, in such

554
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,640
a great point you made about
stuff that starts outside of

555
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,600
school is usually brought into
the school as those kids all all

556
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,800
come together.
And, you know, some, some

557
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,640
jurisdictions will say the
school has limitations.

558
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,480
It can't reach into the home and
address issues that have

559
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,960
happened there, even though
they've caused massive issues in

560
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,640
in the school.
So, you know, I think lots of

561
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,840
schools are looking at, well,
how do we educate our parents?

562
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,000
How do we get our parents on
board because we've got the kids

563
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,200
for seven or 8 hours a day.
The rest of the time they're at

564
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,280
home or or wherever else.
What what does?

565
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,120
What are some key things that
parent education looks like in

566
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,360
this space so that everyone's
sort of pushing in the same

567
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,040
direction?
You know what, that, that's a

568
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,600
great point.
That's exactly what I hear from

569
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,240
schools, whether I go anywhere
through Australia, New Zealand

570
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,120
or I've spoken in the States.
This isn't about geographical

571
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,760
locations, about human nature.
It's exact all the same

572
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,920
conversations are being had all
around the world.

573
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,480
Look, you're exactly right in
that once the child walks out of

574
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,520
the school grounds, we don't
have the ability to manage what

575
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,360
parents do.
So I think as much as, and like

576
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,640
you said, you had the kids for
seven hours a day, so they're

577
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,120
the captured audience, they're
the stakeholder that's captured

578
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,240
and they get the education.
We can't do that with parents.

579
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,000
Now, one of my, my, you know,
the biggest things I try to

580
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,800
achieve when I go into a school
community is to start that

581
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,640
education with parents.
And we're not going to get

582
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,720
everybody on board at the same
time.

583
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,880
It's about drip feeding it.
It's about creating a positive

584
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,480
norm.
Parents start to do these things

585
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,760
and they pass those messages on
and it may take a generation or

586
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,800
two.
So the first thing I like to do

587
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,720
is, is really empower parents to
know that their role is

588
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,600
incredibly important.
Sometimes I step back because of

589
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,200
fear.
Sometimes I step back because I

590
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,920
think, I assume they know it
all.

591
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,120
So we want parents to feel
empowered.

592
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,000
So we want them to let us know
it's OK for them to manage

593
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,760
technology in the house.
They don't have to know much

594
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,440
about it, but they're the ones
that have to manage it.

595
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,480
The second thing I'd probably
say is for a parent to set rules

596
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,520
and boundaries.
And if a parent says, well, what

597
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,200
rules and boundaries, what you
could do is give them the school

598
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,680
policy and say, we'll start
here, see how we manage

599
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,000
technology at school.
There's times you can and can't

600
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,040
use technology.
There's programs you can and

601
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,520
can't use.
You know, there's places you can

602
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,560
and can't use technology.
You know, there's the accounts

603
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,160
you can and can't have.
This is what we expect you to

604
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,240
do.
If you have a problem, you don't

605
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,280
hand personal information over.
So we have rules and boundaries

606
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,200
at home.
And what I say to parents is I

607
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,680
don't think there's one thing
you can put in place at home as

608
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,240
it relates to a rule on a
boundary.

609
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,560
Even if it doesn't work, that's
going to be, that's going to

610
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,240
have a negative impact to the
outcome of their life.

611
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,080
Be prepared to make mistakes.
Be prepared that things may not

612
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,960
work.
Be prepared to change the rules

613
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,640
and boundaries as your children
grow because they become

614
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,120
different people.
You know, I've had, I've had

615
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,640
parents who say to me, my child
is struggling online, they're

616
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,920
experiencing severe bullying and
mental health issues and they've

617
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,480
been told by people you can't
take their device away.

618
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,720
That's the child's right to have
it or you never take their

619
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,480
device away.
My response to that is that is

620
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,080
ridiculous.
We are putting technology and

621
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,760
the access to technology above
the health and well-being of

622
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,080
their children.
If a parent decides it's having

623
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,199
a negative effect, remove access
totally.

624
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,520
If you feel that's needed, work
on the problem to fix it.

625
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,719
Make sure you're comfortable,
your kids are OK, Then they're

626
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,280
back on using technology again,
maybe with a few changes.

627
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,400
But never feel that you can't
remove technology if you feel

628
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,440
it's destroying your child or
your family.

629
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,280
Technology is very good at
building a lot of credibility

630
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,159
around itself and that that's
its job.

631
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:35,520
So we use it by the rules and
the boundaries.

632
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,120
The other thing is this, every
single school I go into uses

633
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,480
some form of management software
to manage what people are doing

634
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,719
online and to see what they're
doing for parents.

635
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,080
It's called parental controls,
empowering parents to know they

636
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,320
have a right to do that, not to
keep their kids off technology,

637
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,680
but to help them manage that
online world.

638
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,520
You know, there's a lot of great
ones out there.

639
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,280
I mean, if a family's got Apple
devices, you've got Apple Family

640
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,600
Sharing, Google has now got some
great free parental management

641
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,960
software.
And what it does, it can limit

642
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,160
time, it can block them out of
particular websites, can let

643
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,760
parents know whether they're
searching up on the wrong sorts

644
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,600
of websites.
So use parental controls.

645
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,680
Now I say this one to parents,
stay current and they go stay

646
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,400
current.
I've still got my Nokia flip

647
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,120
phone from 2002.
What do you mean stay current?

648
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,840
I say, well, it's not about
staying current with technology,

649
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,000
just technology as it relates to
your kids, knowing that those

650
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,720
sorts of programs they're using
websites visiting.

651
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,960
Now they say, well, how do I
stay current?

652
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,560
I say #1 you talk to your kids,
that's how you're going to stay

653
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,080
current.
Say you can do Google searches.

654
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,000
You can talk to the school who
has knowledge of you know what

655
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,360
good and bad programs are.
You can, there's some great, I

656
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,840
say to your parents, your son or
daughter comes home and they

657
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,040
say, can I use this program and
you've never heard of it?

658
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,080
Don't say yes because once it's
in, it's very hard to get out.

659
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,080
Obscure yourself.
Do a Google search.

660
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,200
Everything a parent needs to
know about TikTok and then it

661
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,840
should bring up a lot of
reputable good information

662
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,800
about, you know, how a parent
can manage TikTok or whether

663
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,840
it's good for a child at a
particular age.

664
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,960
But there is one more strategy
that I always pass on to

665
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,040
parents.
It is create a culture of

666
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,000
communication in your home.
Communication is king.

667
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,280
In Australia we have what's
called the E Safety Commission.

668
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,160
It's a federal government body
and their job is to manage

669
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,920
technology.
They are the go to when it comes

670
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,160
to protecting people online.
Their number one message?

671
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,480
Start the conversation.
This is where we identify

672
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,200
whether a child's having a good
time, whether they're

673
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,480
struggling, whether everything's
OK.

674
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,480
It gives them a feeling of
support when they're speaking to

675
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,720
a supportive adult because up
here can be the loneliest place

676
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,160
they'll ever be.
It allows us to identify if

677
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,800
there's a problem.
It allows us to take action to

678
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,560
fix that problem.
Never underestimate the value

679
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,320
and the power of communication.
I've lost count the number of

680
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,440
schools who've said we had a
teacher who asked the child a

681
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,200
question and that child then
disclosed to them what have been

682
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,360
going online, but they weren't
disclosing until they asked that

683
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,800
question.
The teacher identified wasn't

684
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,720
quite right.
So open lines of communication

685
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,800
is, is our best weapon, no
matter who we are when it comes

686
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,360
to being a parent, being a
carer, being someone who's

687
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,040
interested in the, you know, the
help and well-being a children

688
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:47,280
or school communities, being
teachers, being support staff,

689
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,040
being management.
So it's, it's really the

690
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,840
communication key and that will
never change because this is

691
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,760
about people.
That's why I say to parents, if

692
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,440
you're it's like a bully, that's
not about TikTok, that's about

693
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,680
someone bullying your child.
So yeah, that that's generally

694
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,960
my advice that that that schools
can help empower parents to get

695
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,360
involved.
Once you're involved, they're

696
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,840
glad.
They're happy they got involved.

697
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,120
Now you mentioned the, the
Australian government just

698
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,400
before, so we're we're speaking
now it's January 2026 and

699
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,040
recently the Australian
government's implemented a

700
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,800
social media ban for young
people.

701
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,760
I'm wondering your kind of your
view on that in in in terms of

702
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,760
its potential effectiveness in
terms of addressing the

703
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,680
objectives for which it was
introduced and whether that's

704
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,000
really the reality on the ground
from what you're seeing so far?

705
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,640
Yeah, Kevin, I think you know
what my opinion is.

706
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,520
I think this is a no brainer and
it's long overdue.

707
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,360
I'm going to say a couple of
things before I start.

708
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,920
In my the last 20 years in
Australia, and I believe it's

709
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,760
probably replicated around the
world, we've had children under

710
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,760
the age of 16 harm themselves,
take their own lives, severe

711
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,520
mental health through issues,
through bullying.

712
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,160
We've had children sexually
abused, we've had children

713
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:16,240
abducted and we've had children
murdered as a result of using

714
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:19,600
these types of programs.
The government's moving to

715
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,520
restrict kids from until they're
16.

716
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,680
And do you know what we've done
as a community here?

717
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,960
Absolutely nothing.
We've watched it happen for 20

718
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,040
years and done nothing.
Finally, the government has

719
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,240
stepped in and said enough's
enough.

720
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,800
What is best for our children?
What are they going to really

721
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,560
miss out on in their life that's
positive and productive if they

722
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,920
don't have access to these types
of programs?

723
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,440
So there was a lot of media in
relation to this building up to

724
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,040
this wall coming into effect in
December last year.

725
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,520
Do you know since then, I
haven't been back into a school

726
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:57,800
yet.
That'll happen at the end of

727
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,040
January, early February.
I've heard nothing.

728
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,880
The idea of this is to create a
new norm.

729
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,480
It's not even for this
generation.

730
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,360
It's when the next generation
comes through.

731
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,520
Parents and kids just know well
you don't have those accounts

732
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,560
till you're 16.
And there's millions of other

733
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,280
accounts you can use.
You can play games, you can chat

734
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,200
to your friends through
communication programs, but you

735
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,480
can't have these programs that
have been identified as being

736
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,120
dangerous.
Lots of research was done.

737
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,960
One of those pieces of research
I report relied on was in the UK

738
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,960
where 17,000 young people were
surveyed.

739
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,280
And it was a study that was done
and it found that particularly

740
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:50,280
boys aged 13 to 15, yeah, 13 to
15, and girls 11 to 13 had

741
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,440
decreased like satisfaction when
they're exposed to these types

742
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,360
of programs.
I can tell you social media

743
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,200
connects your kids with 5
billion people, Every single

744
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,960
adult person.
An issue this world's got to

745
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,560
offer.
I mean, and we've, we wonder why

746
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,840
there was issues.
So look, it's not going to be

747
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:08,840
easy.
It's not saying we don't trust

748
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:10,680
kids.
It's not saying we don't trust

749
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,640
the nature of our world.
The companies themselves will

750
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:17,440
not do it.
Now the big thing that parents

751
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,760
and communities are wondering
how are they going to do it?

752
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,480
The onus is on the social media
companies to know who their

753
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,080
customers are.
They can do this through

754
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,560
algorithms.
So if you know, if someone's got

755
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:37,520
an account and they got 200
followers and 190 of those

756
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,360
followers are under 16, I would
say that news is under 16 bank.

757
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,280
The account's deleted.
They do have the option to

758
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,160
deactivate it so it can be
reactivated at 16, but that's

759
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,800
going to be up to the company
itself.

760
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,680
So there's algorithms who
they're adding, you know what

761
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,280
they're searching up how they're
behaving.

762
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,000
These companies know who's who.
So they already know who we are.

763
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,600
They know I'm sitting here
talking to you.

764
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,760
They're that's their job is to
profile us, not only who we are,

765
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,040
where we are, but what we want
to eat, when we're going to eat

766
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,960
it.
So they already know, they've

767
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,320
just never bothered to find out
because that's obviously going

768
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,360
to take time.
It's going to erode some of the

769
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:20,400
trust that their customers have.
So I think it's going to be the

770
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,120
biggest shift, positive shift
when it comes to young people

771
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,080
and technology that we've seen
since the introduction of

772
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,080
technology.
So, again, it's not going to be

773
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,680
perfect.
Can someone get around it?

774
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,560
VPNs, whatever it is.
Yeah, maybe.

775
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:36,960
But guess what?
None of their friends are going

776
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,880
to be there because I've worked
this year and you're not better

777
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,000
than me.
Human beings, particularly young

778
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,200
people, we like easy.
Things have got to be easy.

779
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,480
We don't want it to be hard or
complicated.

780
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,280
People just give up and they use
something else.

781
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,960
So it's about changing the
culture.

782
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,000
And Jenna, here's one for you.
You'll get this parent who says

783
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,440
it should be my decision whether
my child uses social media or

784
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,680
not.
Are so really is it your choice

785
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,440
whether your child wears a seat
belt or not?

786
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,600
Is it your choice when your
child can legally consume

787
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,880
alcohol?
Is it your choice when your

788
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,320
child can vote?
No.

789
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,640
Our community is said because
this is a young person and

790
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,320
they're growing and they're
developing as a community, we're

791
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,680
going to put boundaries in place
to protect young people.

792
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,720
This is another one of them.
So we we're on to this already.

793
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,640
It's something that we're used
to.

794
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,960
I think it's a good thing at at
this moment.

795
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,800
I haven't checked the website,
but I can tell you that the

796
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,320
sites that have been included
and this list will evolve.

797
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,240
Some may drop off if they change
their functionality.

798
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:49,040
It's all about how the program
works, the programs they've

799
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,480
looked at, what well are
included.

800
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,400
It's called an age restricted
social media site.

801
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,200
It's really a site where its
primary function, primary

802
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,400
purpose is to connect people
randomly together where they can

803
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,960
interact at a personal level and
share information.

804
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,440
So the sites that have come
under this scope is Facebook to

805
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,400
Graham, Snapchat Talk and
YouTube.

806
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,240
There have been a couple of
others added.

807
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,840
I think there's Reddit, there's
another, there's another couple,

808
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,200
I'm not sure about the country
that you're hosting this podcast

809
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,320
from, but in Australia, they're
not popular with young people.

810
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,000
But the fifth one here that I'm
sure is popular around the world

811
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:41,840
with Yanka is YouTube.
Now don't think that means that

812
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,880
young people can't watch YouTube
videos.

813
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,000
It means they can't create a
channel or an account in

814
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,520
YouTube.
So that's my belief because it

815
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,760
is still evolving.
It's still being implemented.

816
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,000
I'm very, very interested to get
back to schools too, because the

817
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,000
kids are on holidays here, so,
well, vacation here.

818
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,360
So that they haven't really come
together to discuss this and to

819
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,280
see what's happening and who's
got what and what experiences it

820
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:08,360
had.
And the school hasn't heard

821
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,560
that.
So I'm really interested to get

822
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,400
back into school this year.
It's going to be very, very

823
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,520
interesting.
But the answer to your question,

824
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,480
it's a godsend.
So all we can do is wait and

825
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,840
speak.
What's going to happen?

826
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:22,880
Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more,
couldn't agree more.

827
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,080
So just to, to wrap things up
and draw things to a close.

828
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,240
Now, you shared a lot of
information, a lot of, you know,

829
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,160
experience, advice, suggestions.
If there was just one thing, one

830
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,480
main thing that someone
listening to this could take

831
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,880
away, whether that's a, you
know, someone primarily who's

832
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,600
working in education, what's
what's the, the most important

833
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,040
thing you'd like them to take
away from this conversation?

834
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,960
You know what it is technology
and the Internet has opened up

835
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,600
so many great opportunities for
us and most people.

836
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,200
Always remember most people have
a pretty good time online,

837
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,520
including children.
It would be to acknowledge the

838
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,280
dangers of real.
As a carer, I have a right to

839
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,520
get involved and is basically
using the skills I already have,

840
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,320
my instincts, my life skills,
and by keeping talking to young

841
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,600
people about technology and
we're just going to see issues

842
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,800
drop away.
The bad things happen in

843
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,160
private.
So it's all about that

844
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,120
conversation and that
communication.

845
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,080
I'd like to make it a lot more
clever and interesting and

846
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,760
complex, but I really don't
believe that is.

847
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,560
Fantastic.
Well, that's, I think that's a

848
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,960
great place to leave it, Brett.
So look, thanks so much, really

849
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,080
appreciate your time today
sharing your, your, your

850
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:37,640
knowledge and experience and and
background just so, so valuable

851
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,280
and and interesting.
Thanks so much.

852
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,000
Thank you, Kevin.
It's been an absolute pleasure.

853
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,160
Good luck for 2026 and the same
to all your listeners.

854
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,120
Thanks so much for listening to
the episode.

855
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,400
If you enjoyed this
conversation, don't forget to

856
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,800
subscribe, like, follow, et
cetera.

857
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,080
Drop a comment below to let me
know anything you'd like covered

858
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,960
in upcoming episodes or
suggestions for future guests.

859
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,880
You can also connect with me on
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