Brett Lee

0:05 Welcome to the Leadership Passport. I'm delighted to welcome my guest today, Mr. Brett Lee. So Internet Safe education creator Brett Lee worked as a Queensland Police officer for 22 years, sixteen of those as a detective, predominantly in the field of Child Exploitation. In his last five years of service he was a specialist in the field of undercover Internet Child Exploitation investigations. Brett has been personally involved in the online investigation, arrest and prosecution of numerous offenders whose medium for praying on children is the Internet. Brett has delivered training to members of law enforcement agencies around Australia including NSW, S, Australian W, Australian Police and Australian Customs.

0:45 Within his own police service, he was involved in the training of plainclothes police through detective training and sexual crimes courses in online Child Exploitation investigations. Further to Brett's experience, he's completed the FBI Advanced Internet Investigations course and has worked with the FBI Innocent Images Unit in Maryland, USA, the Department of Homeland Security Cyber Crimes Center in Virginia, and the San Jose Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force in California. He's also attended and spoken at conferences around Australia and the world. Welcome, Brett. Great to have you here today. Thank you, Kevin. It's great to be here. So before we talk about and sort of get into the details of Internet safety and education, can you briefly walk us through your journey from policing into the work that you do today?

1:35 Yeah, of course, when I started policing, it was a very, very different world. And technology evolved during my policing career and probably the last five years that I was a police officer, I really got involved heavily in it. I was part of a as a Detective Sergeant. I was part of an undercover Internet team and our job was to assume the fictitious identities of children, go onto the Internet as it was then, and locate, identify and arrest child sex offenders who who have, of course, always been a part of our community. But we're now utilizing the, you know, the capabilities of the Internet to connect with an offend against children. So in doing that job, it got me a very unique, you know, very unique look at technology.

2:18 Some of the things we don't see the world behind the screen. So I started working in that in Brisbane, in Queensland, Australia, I started working as an undercover detective and I did that for five years until, until I left. So like I said, it gave me a very unique insight not only to how technology works, but the human aspect to it as well. It sounds like incredible must be an incredibly difficult work and challenging work. What kind of initially drew you into that? Look, it was an interest in technology that I was aware of the unit that had just started to do it. So I thought this is something that, you know, I had that passion for protecting children because I came from the Child and Sexual Assault Unit, Brisbane Police Headquarters. So I, I sort of wanted to expand on that a bit further. And of course, like a lot of people, it's the curiosity, you know, of that online world has capabilities, its limitations. And I noticed a lot of people around me had really no idea what we were doing or, or what it really meant. And during the podcast, I'll probably outline some of that. Yeah.

3:31 So I, I just applied and I got selected and I was part of that unit. And of course we did extensive training in relation to it together. Collect, store and put evidence in a format where it's admissible to court. Yeah, it was sort of. I felt it was like a natural progression. And, and was there a particular moment, you know, when you were coming to perhaps the end of, of your service as a detective there when you realise that that education and, and rather than on the enforcement investigation side was it could be really powerful way for, you know, protecting children or children to protect themselves. That's a really good question because that is just spot on. That's exactly what happened.

4:12 So, you know, we were only limited by time we were arresting child sex offenders from the Internet every single day of the week. The and and we sort of realized that we can't arrest our way out of this problem. But what was really the trigger for me is our officer in charge requested we go to a school and deliver a cyber safety presentation, which I'd never done before to a group of year 10 female students at an all girls school. And we just went to the school and we sort of outlined in, in, you know, I'm very accessible, you know, and acceptable terms to year 10 girls who are around 15 years of age, what our job entailed and what we were witnessing.

4:58 And the level of, and, and I don't say this in a derogatory way, the level of ignorance, not only to, well, not really how technology works, but to the lack of life skills. And I can remember 115 year old girl said to me, or do people really want to do that to other people, to 15 year old girls? That sort of blew me away. And I thought, well, I just assumed you knew there were people out there who were going to harm you in a number of different ways. And that's when I realized how vulnerable children can be, not because they can't use technology, because they have a different view of the world that they didn't have our allied skills. So, you know, very accepting and very trusting. And I thought, well, this, this is the key. If we can remove potential victims, we can make them smarter and remove the victims.

5:50 Even though there may be predators online, there's no way they can accomplish their, you know, their illegal, you know, the things I want to do that are illegal. So that really, really gave me the idea that, you know, education is the key, enforcement is very important and it is ineffective in all. It is effective in a lot of ways where we need to remove these people, they need to be accountable, they need to be identified. But to make that real community change, it's really the education. So, you know, talking about like that, that first, you know, presentation and and education session for the for the kids in your subsequent ones.

6:31 Talk us through a little bit the kinds of things that you cover. What do you and I've been lucky enough we were just chatting before to have you in in one of the schools I was in and talked to our kids and it was incredibly powerful and eye opening for those kids. Could you run us through a little bit about kind of what you're covering and what you share with them? Because it does shock a lot of the kids in not in a like a like an explicit way or an over the top way, but it really shocks them in terms of the kinds of things that are that are possible and that other people want to do like you said. Yeah, look, exactly. Messages should never be designed to create fear. But I think it's important that everyone in our community knows the world they're in. They know the truth because that's what gives them the passion and reason to know what role they need to play. Whether it's a child protecting themselves, whether it's a teacher, an educator or a parent playing a role to protect children, people really need to know the dangers that exist. And I think a lot of there are people and there's, there's areas in our community that I, I don't think give kids the credit they deserve that, you know, let's shelter them from these days from the knowledge that these dangers exist. I don't agree with that.

7:45 I think they're quite resilient. I think when young people know there's a reason why these things are being put in place, you know, that that's why they're being put in place. So I think that's, I think that's important that we, we highlight, you know, the dangers that exist, not to say any particular people or not to say the internet's bad, but these dangers are real because it's the truth. So how I would deliver my messages to children was first to what you said, in an acceptable, accessible way, depending on what age group it is. You know, we deliver the primary schools like kids right down in year 1/2, right up to year 12. But yeah, we don't over sensationalize. We just let them know, you know, our experience and the dangers that do exist.

8:32 And we just go through the strategies in how to avoid those dangers while still being a part of the online world, letting them know it's not going to be perfect. You could have issues, but is the skills to fix those issues and move on. This is what's open to you to make that world safe. These are the things you should avoid. So, you know, letting them know the dangers that exist, how to avoid those dangers. And if they have problems, having the skills and sometimes the courage to take action to to fix those problems. And I really think it's as simple as that because I say to parents, what are we trying to achieve here? Not kick kids off the Internet, but for them to be able to, you know, experience all the great stuff whilst reducing risk.

9:15 And I don't think we need to overcomplicate it. And particularly for young people, they need something that you know they can grasp onto, that they can action, they can use. I remember from some of your workshops that you give you share some specific examples of what of kind of how kids can find themselves getting into strife and getting into some trouble. And before they know it, they're kind of in, in, you know, pretty deep into things. And it can be hard for for either kids or parents or teachers who aren't, maybe aren't familiar with technology as social media and some of the platforms that are out there to know what what that kind of looks like and, and to recognize maybe some of the signals or signs that, you know, they're getting themselves into a difficult position with someone maybe who's not, who's representing themselves as someone who they're not.

10:04 I'm wondering if maybe you could share one or two examples from your experience of what that kind of a situational process unfolds like. Yeah, look, I because I live this every day and I I think about it constantly. I, I really don't think the human brain has been set up evolutionary wise or creation wise to handle the nature of the online world in that the Internet exists in our mind. So it's very hard We're we're really seeing is believing and Amon tries to create scenarios based on the information it receives. And quite often, as you mentioned, that information may not be accurate when we're using the Internet. So it's quite hard to contextualize what's really happening with technology.

10:51 And there are people that will take advantage of that. I've arrested hundreds of adults, generally males. They're nearly always males who are using technology to target children. And my job was to pretend to be a child. Every single person I arrested, I believe, believe that I was a child. Beyond all that, I was a child to them that was as real to them as someone walking around in the street. How I achieved that was I told him I was a child. I sent fake pictures as a child. I told them what they wanted to hear, so they've been more inclined to believe me and communicate with me. And I spoke like a child.

11:36 And that was enough for them to believe that they knew who they were talking to. Every single one of them, some of them were struggling to comprehend when we arrested them, was struggling to comprehend that that child didn't exist. In their mind, that child was real. Now, this is an adult person. Now, if we can transpose that to young people, imagine the challenges that they're going to have when looking at a screen, processing that information with the developing brain, with life skills that aren't as developed as us. Very trusting, accepting. There's things they're going to really want out of life to develop into who they believe they are. They want to be accepted and as humans, we've all got needs and vulnerabilities.

12:23 And you know, some of the needs and vulnerabilities I've identified that you and your audience would know better than me being educators said they want to be accepted. They want to move on to the next level. They want to feel that there's someone, they want to be famous. So they become very vulnerable in relation to, you know, interacting with people online. So really the only way we can, we can target this, if children are going to be part of an online world, is to pass on, you know, generic messages of substance. It's to get young people to think. I say to young people, the Internet only exists in one place. It's in someone's mind. And when someone makes a choice online, it's not because they slipped.

13:07 It's that bad that choice didn't start in their fingertips, that bad choice or that choice didn't start on the screen. It started here. So that's what we have to work on. Nobody online, no matter who they are, no matter how bad, no matter how big, can make us make a choice. That's always going to be us chopping the key. So we want our kids to think the right way so they know there's choices I do and don't make. But that example of, you know, those criminals say they just accept it, whatever I put on the screen. And these were adult people and you would assume they knew they were doing the wrong thing. So you would assume they'd be on the lookout for for, you know, maybe a police officer doing this or someone not being who they are.

13:52 But none of them questioned it. They just accepted it. So if we can, you know, really target, you know, the mindset of our children, which with some basic generic messages, I, I think that's what's going to empower them to be able to use the Internet. Because like I said to parents, you can't be there 24 hours a day. Your role and a role as an educator is to give kids everything they need to put them in a position where they can make the right voice themselves. So what do you think? From from your experience, what does schools most commonly underestimate about online risk? Look like I think in a large regard, one of my messages is that the internet's public and we know that, but in a large regards in it's a very hidden world. So each person because it's up here has their own experience. And I think when, when adults particularly, you know, law abiding, responsible adults who had the kids interest best at heart, like parents and carers and teachers, we assume that the experience we have is similar to the experience our children have.

14:56 So I've had parents who have said to me, oh, you know, I've had a good time in Facebook. My child's going to have a good time in Facebook. That's absolutely not the truth. Because they're at a different stage of their life. They're looking to get different things from it. They're going to connect with different people. They're not thinking the same. They're not, they're they're for the same purposes. So I, I think we can underestimate some of the, the effects that are the screen that technology, that interaction can have on a young person, whether predatory behaviour, whether it's cyber bullying. I have so many parents say to me, but my kids were cyber bullied that just delete it. That just blocked that person. They'd move away, which is absolutely not the case.

15:36 Now, I've spoken of some very clever psychologists, child psychologists who say human nature, particularly children, they can't do that. They're drawn to that content. They want to see what's happening. They think the more they look at it, the more they're going to be able to put it into perspective. But it just compounds the negative effects. But then we've got, you know what We can self manage better as well because their brains are fully developed and children can be very susceptible to addiction, you know, to being drawn to content that's outside what we could consider as normal, common, proprietary in society, like language and how to treat people and what has a bigger effect on a young person's mind.

16:19 So I'm never I'm never negative when I talk to educators or parents. See, we didn't grow up in that world as a young person being exposed to it. So we really don't know the effects that we have. So I think it's because also we grew up in a world where the dangers were generally physical. Now they're hugely, potentially hugely psychological. And I don't think we really understand the importance of, you know, playing that role, but educating the children or understanding some of it, you know, that the negatively life changing issues that technology can potentially create. Yeah. And you bring up a good point there when, you know, we were, we were growing up, you know, there was, you know, there wasn't the Internet. It wasn't really around that in the way that it is now. And but you know, those kind of people who sought to do harm and do the wrong thing, you know, that was more of a in a physical space.

17:19 I remember growing up in Australia, there was a campaign around stranger danger and around safe houses. You know, people would talk to you about how to keep as a child, how to keep yourself safe. That's signs to look out for the, the things to be aware of and then what to do. So what does that, what's does that advice look like for kids these days in technology in terms of, you know, what are the things to look out for? What are the signs? And then what do you do? If if you do recognize something that doesn't look or feel right, then what do you do? Look, I think for a parent and and a teacher, it's important to use the the skills that you already possess and not to let technology slip under the radar and make you believe that because someone's behind a screen, something's changed. So all the dangers that were presented to us in the physical world and the systems that were put in place to protect us there, we should be thinking the same online. The dangers are exactly the same. So you think, would it be OK for someone to walk up to my child, an adult, and asking for their details down at the shopping center?

18:27 If the answer is well, that would be horrifying. Of course not, because that's not normal. That's not OK. They don't have that right? We should be thinking the same online. Now we don't panic, but we want to educate our children to that, that it's not OK just because someone's behind a screen. So I think we think the same as parents, we're very and as educators, we, we look very carefully at online contacts, no matter who, because that's where nearly all the problems exist. I mean, a child may see something that's disturbing, but that's something that can be managed and we can move past that. But if they're connected to people online who for no reason want to become part of their life, want their personal information, are promising to give them things, I can guarantee you having spent thousands of hours communicating with online child sex offenders, that that is a person with I'll intention because that's not normal. That's not OK.

19:22 There's no reason for that. So again, we don't panic. Is that person who they say they are and they're just interested? I don't know and I don't care because they're not part of my child's life, so they don't need to communicate with them. So looking for people who are trying to get access, looking for people who want to, who are trying to pique our children's interests because children are very curious. People who are interacting in a sexualized way online as well. That gives predators. Predators do that for a number of reasons. One, they can identify a child who's prepared to take risk. It desensitizes the child and it excites them, the predator. So we we don't just dismiss that. We don't think, oh, this is just young people, you know, talking in a way that young people talk.

20:14 No, that that's not OK. And the other thing is looking at people who befriend their children in public spaces. Such as social media and gaming sites and video sharing sites, and then want to move our child from there to start interacting in a private messaging program. So we want to remove private relationships and friendships. It's OK for kids to play games. It's OK to inter interest themselves or interact with people online as long as they treat them for who they are. They're a stranger. If that person walked up to me in the street and asked me where I lived, that's not OK. Then it doesn't automatically become OK when it's online.

20:55 And what I generally say is a lot of parents and teachers already have the skills they need. It's about trusting those instincts. I say to a parent, you may not even know how to communicate. You turn a computer on, but if something inside you tells you something's wrong, something is wrong. And generally starts with conversation, of course. So and I let parents and teachers know you're not being a bad parent. You're not saying you don't trust your kids. You're saying you identify that you don't trust the nature of the world we live in and we want our kids to feel safe. So it's that, it's that personal interaction online that's one of the big things to look out for.

21:37 So you've been into hundreds, probably thousands of schools over, you know it, many, many years. What are some things that you see when you go into a school and you recognize this school really gets it in terms of the, the, the community or the people in the school in terms of their approaches to education around online safety and those sorts of things. What are, what are some of the those key features where you see, all right, well, this, this school, this community is pretty switched on in terms of how they're approaching this stuff. Look, things are changing and people sort of didn't know the nature of how to manage it in a school. I've been going into schools for 17 years and I've seen a lot of change. The first thing I, I noticed when I go into a school sometimes these, these times I say, how's it going at school with kids and technology? The school, it says to me, look, we deal with so many issues, personal issues, self esteem issues, anger issues, interpersonal skills, consent issues with our students. And I say, well, how's this happening? Every single time?

22:37 The answer is the same social media every single time. They say it takes up 80% of their time when it comes to pastoral, when it comes to, you know, looking after kids. well-being social media, that's the first one. Now, where are they getting access to this social media? Not on school devices that they used to learn. It's on their own personal devices. Like I said, times are changing. When I went in, when I was going to school 17 years ago, not one school in Australia had an acceptable user policy when it came to technology. I think we assume that if we give every teenager in the world an Internet able device, they're going to use it to learn, which they didn't. So I go into a school, first thing I look for is a policy that's ever evolving.

23:28 If they have an issue that issue, the points they can take from that are implemented into the policy. Now what's a policy? It is rules. And we have this in every single aspect of our life. The government doesn't even trust me to drive my car at the right speed. They put a, they put a speed limit in place, it's got a penalty attached to it. Policies are essential to let people know where they stand. So that's the first thing. The second thing I've noticed in the majority of schools I go to now that one of the rules in that policy is there is no access to personal Internet enabled devices in the school. This is one of the biggest things that is going to reduce risks, right?

24:14 Download. As an undercover detective, and not everyone agrees with this, but I can tell you this, I never, ever understood this. When I'd go into schools and I'd see kids walking around on their own devices, I'd say, oh, they're allowed to do that. Oh, yeah, well, they own it. It's their device. And you know what I couldn't understand? If someone walked up to the fence at school and called a student over and said, hey, what's your name? Where'd he go to school? What's your address? The school probably called the police because that's not OK, That's concerning. But these students were walking around at school with their own device and they could be being groomed by a child sex offender on the school grounds under the school's care without the school knowing those personal devices. The biggest problem is there's no accountability. It is a private world for them.

25:02 The other thing I thought you could have students at school bullying other students at school and then that other student may be so upset they take their own life or there's a fight. I never understood why we as a community would allow this. They've said, oh, you know, we trust the kids. It's not about trusting our kids. It's about trusting the world. It's about identifying that sometimes young people will make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes with technology can be life changing. And why do we go to school? It's an educational environment. Those those phones are personal. That's what they're used for. Kids don't generally don't use those phones to learn. They use it to have fun.

25:44 These are to watch videos, play games and connect with other people. So schools who I see is really starting to manage technology are identifying and it's not easy. No one likes change. No one likes to lose something. And the first couple of years it can be tricky to say, OK, there's no personal devices at school. How a school chooses to manage that, I think it's going to be up to them because every school is different. Some schools manage a lot better. Some students hand them in, some students. Some schools say, OK, they got to go in your lockers, you're not allowed to touch them for the day. And then I would have a someone who'd say, oh, but they can go and get it. Yeah. So if they do, when they're caught, there's a penalty. Their parents are called, the phone's taken, they get it back at the end of the day.

26:28 Second offence, the parent has to come down to the school to collect the phone. Third offence, internal suspension. So this is how we manage the world because I say to parents, when each child goes to bed, you can't stop them coming out, taking the car keys and go and driving the car. I said you'd get that's their responsibility. Yeah, I can do that, but I don't do that. And then when we can normalize that, and it might take a few years because not everyone's going to be happy, particularly if they've been able to use it, it becomes the norm. And there'll always be people who do the wrong thing. But it's about creating a positive norm whereby the majority of their community complies. So that's the other thing I've seen where there's policy, the policy has to be enforced.

27:16 There's only one thing worse than no policy. It's having a policy and not enforcing it. The next one is putting phones and personal devices in their place. You're here to learn. You're under our care. If you have a problem, you come to us. It's enumerable. The amount of issues that personal devices, of course, that I've heard the big one that you as that you as a school might have identified is that if a child's having a problem at school, they don't go to a teacher. They ring their parents when the parent gets on to the school and says what are you doing? My child? This is happening to my child. So it causes more issues. So getting those phones away, trusting instincts, doing educate our own education in school with them.

27:58 There's so many great programs out there now because I say to parents in schools, we don't tell the kids the good stuff. No one's going to TikTok, certainly not teach our kids how to manage technology. So look, the other things I would of identified going into schools, you know, having a learning device with management software so the school knows what activities happening, people know that someone's watching, having that policy, enforcing the policy, keeping lines of communication open with families and knowing that this is a team effort. We're all stakeholders here. So and the education as well and restorative practices, the course, our staff identifying, you know, that issues can be created with the young, young person.

28:48 And look, one of the big things I had was, you know, most of these issues and I'm not sure exactly how your community there works, but they're created at home. So, you know, how much of A role should the school play? The thing is, the issues are created at home, but generally they're bought into the school and it affects the, you know, the education, the well-being involved students. So again, each school needs to manage it as best suits their community. But if they sort of grasp onto those ideas, you know, I think we're going a long way to to, you know, young people being able to use it in and out of school. You see, when they go into the workplace, you know what we can teach them as a school.

29:30 The internet's got rules. I don't have to be have the right to use my personal device to check my social media while I'm at work. We're teaching them these skills that if I have a problem, these are the practices in place, these are the solutions in place, and I do this and I fix my problem, never keep it to myself, report it to a superior. So I think we're really benefiting children by not getting them to think that when I go into the workplace, I can do whatever I want on my phone. So there's a chance I'll have to sign one of those documents when they go into the workplace in relation to I will comply with the acceptable user. Yeah. And you brought up an interesting point there just before about partnerships at home. And, you know, different jurisdictions and authorities around the world as they relate to education will have different viewpoints on, you know, in such a great point you made about stuff that starts outside of school is usually brought into the school as those kids all all come together. And, you know, some, some jurisdictions will say the school has limitations.

30:37 It can't reach into the home and address issues that have happened there, even though they've caused massive issues in in the school. So, you know, I think lots of schools are looking at, well, how do we educate our parents? How do we get our parents on board because we've got the kids for seven or 8 hours a day. The rest of the time they're at home or or wherever else. What what does? What are some key things that parent education looks like in this space so that everyone's sort of pushing in the same direction? You know what, that, that's a great point. That's exactly what I hear from schools, whether I go anywhere through Australia, New Zealand or I've spoken in the States. This isn't about geographical locations, about human nature. It's exact all the same conversations are being had all around the world.

31:20 Look, you're exactly right in that once the child walks out of the school grounds, we don't have the ability to manage what parents do. So I think as much as, and like you said, you had the kids for seven hours a day, so they're the captured audience, they're the stakeholder that's captured and they get the education. We can't do that with parents. Now, one of my, my, you know, the biggest things I try to achieve when I go into a school community is to start that education with parents. And we're not going to get everybody on board at the same time. It's about drip feeding it. It's about creating a positive norm. Parents start to do these things and they pass those messages on and it may take a generation or two. So the first thing I like to do is, is really empower parents to know that their role is incredibly important. Sometimes I step back because of fear. Sometimes I step back because I think, I assume they know it all.

32:19 So we want parents to feel empowered. So we want them to let us know it's OK for them to manage technology in the house. They don't have to know much about it, but they're the ones that have to manage it. The second thing I'd probably say is for a parent to set rules and boundaries. And if a parent says, well, what rules and boundaries, what you could do is give them the school policy and say, we'll start here, see how we manage technology at school. There's times you can and can't use technology. There's programs you can and can't use. You know, there's places you can and can't use technology. You know, there's the accounts you can and can't have. This is what we expect you to do. If you have a problem, you don't hand personal information over. So we have rules and boundaries at home. And what I say to parents is I don't think there's one thing you can put in place at home as it relates to a rule on a boundary.

33:13 Even if it doesn't work, that's going to be, that's going to have a negative impact to the outcome of their life. Be prepared to make mistakes. Be prepared that things may not work. Be prepared to change the rules and boundaries as your children grow because they become different people. You know, I've had, I've had parents who say to me, my child is struggling online, they're experiencing severe bullying and mental health issues and they've been told by people you can't take their device away. That's the child's right to have it or you never take their device away. My response to that is that is ridiculous. We are putting technology and the access to technology above the health and well-being of their children. If a parent decides it's having a negative effect, remove access totally.

34:08 If you feel that's needed, work on the problem to fix it. Make sure you're comfortable, your kids are OK, Then they're back on using technology again, maybe with a few changes. But never feel that you can't remove technology if you feel it's destroying your child or your family. Technology is very good at building a lot of credibility around itself and that that's its job. So we use it by the rules and the boundaries. The other thing is this, every single school I go into uses some form of management software to manage what people are doing online and to see what they're doing for parents.

34:48 It's called parental controls, empowering parents to know they have a right to do that, not to keep their kids off technology, but to help them manage that online world. You know, there's a lot of great ones out there. I mean, if a family's got Apple devices, you've got Apple Family Sharing, Google has now got some great free parental management software. And what it does, it can limit time, it can block them out of particular websites, can let parents know whether they're searching up on the wrong sorts of websites. So use parental controls. Now I say this one to parents, stay current and they go stay current. I've still got my Nokia flip phone from 2002. What do you mean stay current?

35:31 I say, well, it's not about staying current with technology, just technology as it relates to your kids, knowing that those sorts of programs they're using websites visiting. Now they say, well, how do I stay current? I say #1 you talk to your kids, that's how you're going to stay current. Say you can do Google searches. You can talk to the school who has knowledge of you know what good and bad programs are. You can, there's some great, I say to your parents, your son or daughter comes home and they say, can I use this program and you've never heard of it? Don't say yes because once it's in, it's very hard to get out. Obscure yourself. Do a Google search. Everything a parent needs to know about TikTok and then it should bring up a lot of reputable good information about, you know, how a parent can manage TikTok or whether it's good for a child at a particular age.

36:17 But there is one more strategy that I always pass on to parents. It is create a culture of communication in your home. Communication is king. In Australia we have what's called the E Safety Commission. It's a federal government body and their job is to manage technology. They are the go to when it comes to protecting people online. Their number one message? Start the conversation. This is where we identify whether a child's having a good time, whether they're struggling, whether everything's OK. It gives them a feeling of support when they're speaking to a supportive adult because up here can be the loneliest place they'll ever be. It allows us to identify if there's a problem. It allows us to take action to fix that problem. Never underestimate the value and the power of communication. I've lost count the number of schools who've said we had a teacher who asked the child a question and that child then disclosed to them what have been going online, but they weren't disclosing until they asked that question. The teacher identified wasn't quite right. So open lines of communication is, is our best weapon, no matter who we are when it comes to being a parent, being a carer, being someone who's interested in the, you know, the help and well-being a children or school communities, being teachers, being support staff,

37:47 being management. So it's, it's really the communication key and that will never change because this is about people. That's why I say to parents, if you're it's like a bully, that's not about TikTok, that's about someone bullying your child. So yeah, that that's generally my advice that that that schools can help empower parents to get involved. Once you're involved, they're glad. They're happy they got involved. Now you mentioned the, the Australian government just before, so we're we're speaking now it's January 2026 and recently the Australian government's implemented a social media ban for young people. I'm wondering your kind of your view on that in in in terms of its potential effectiveness in terms of addressing the objectives for which it was introduced and whether that's really the reality on the ground from what you're seeing so far?

38:39 Yeah, Kevin, I think you know what my opinion is. I think this is a no brainer and it's long overdue. I'm going to say a couple of things before I start. In my the last 20 years in Australia, and I believe it's probably replicated around the world, we've had children under the age of 16 harm themselves, take their own lives, severe mental health through issues, through bullying. We've had children sexually abused, we've had children abducted and we've had children murdered as a result of using these types of programs. The government's moving to restrict kids from until they're 16.

39:21 And do you know what we've done as a community here? Absolutely nothing. We've watched it happen for 20 years and done nothing. Finally, the government has stepped in and said enough's enough. What is best for our children? What are they going to really miss out on in their life that's positive and productive if they don't have access to these types of programs? So there was a lot of media in relation to this building up to this wall coming into effect in December last year. Do you know since then, I haven't been back into a school yet. That'll happen at the end of January, early February. I've heard nothing.

40:01 The idea of this is to create a new norm. It's not even for this generation. It's when the next generation comes through. Parents and kids just know well you don't have those accounts till you're 16. And there's millions of other accounts you can use. You can play games, you can chat to your friends through communication programs, but you can't have these programs that have been identified as being dangerous. Lots of research was done. One of those pieces of research I report relied on was in the UK where 17,000 young people were surveyed. And it was a study that was done and it found that particularly boys aged 13 to 15, yeah, 13 to 15, and girls 11 to 13 had decreased like satisfaction when they're exposed to these types of programs. I can tell you social media connects your kids with 5 billion people, Every single adult person. An issue this world's got to offer. I mean, and we've, we wonder why there was issues. So look, it's not going to be easy. It's not saying we don't trust kids. It's not saying we don't trust the nature of our world. The companies themselves will not do it. Now the big thing that parents and communities are wondering how are they going to do it?

41:20 The onus is on the social media companies to know who their customers are. They can do this through algorithms. So if you know, if someone's got an account and they got 200 followers and 190 of those followers are under 16, I would say that news is under 16 bank. The account's deleted. They do have the option to deactivate it so it can be reactivated at 16, but that's going to be up to the company itself. So there's algorithms who they're adding, you know what they're searching up how they're behaving. These companies know who's who. So they already know who we are. They know I'm sitting here talking to you. They're that's their job is to profile us, not only who we are, where we are, but what we want to eat, when we're going to eat it. So they already know, they've just never bothered to find out because that's obviously going to take time. It's going to erode some of the trust that their customers have. So I think it's going to be the biggest shift, positive shift when it comes to young people and technology that we've seen since the introduction of technology. So, again, it's not going to be perfect. Can someone get around it?

42:33 VPNs, whatever it is. Yeah, maybe. But guess what? None of their friends are going to be there because I've worked this year and you're not better than me. Human beings, particularly young people, we like easy. Things have got to be easy. We don't want it to be hard or complicated. People just give up and they use something else. So it's about changing the culture. And Jenna, here's one for you. You'll get this parent who says it should be my decision whether my child uses social media or not. Are so really is it your choice whether your child wears a seat belt or not? Is it your choice when your child can legally consume alcohol? Is it your choice when your child can vote? No.

43:14 Our community is said because this is a young person and they're growing and they're developing as a community, we're going to put boundaries in place to protect young people. This is another one of them. So we we're on to this already. It's something that we're used to. I think it's a good thing at at this moment. I haven't checked the website, but I can tell you that the sites that have been included and this list will evolve. Some may drop off if they change their functionality. It's all about how the program works, the programs they've looked at, what well are included. It's called an age restricted social media site.

43:56 It's really a site where its primary function, primary purpose is to connect people randomly together where they can interact at a personal level and share information. So the sites that have come under this scope is Facebook to Graham, Snapchat Talk and YouTube. There have been a couple of others added. I think there's Reddit, there's another, there's another couple, I'm not sure about the country that you're hosting this podcast from, but in Australia, they're not popular with young people. But the fifth one here that I'm sure is popular around the world with Yanka is YouTube. Now don't think that means that young people can't watch YouTube videos.

44:43 It means they can't create a channel or an account in YouTube. So that's my belief because it is still evolving. It's still being implemented. I'm very, very interested to get back to schools too, because the kids are on holidays here, so, well, vacation here. So that they haven't really come together to discuss this and to see what's happening and who's got what and what experiences it had. And the school hasn't heard that. So I'm really interested to get back into school this year. It's going to be very, very interesting. But the answer to your question, it's a godsend. So all we can do is wait and speak. What's going to happen? Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more, couldn't agree more. So just to, to wrap things up and draw things to a close.

45:27 Now, you shared a lot of information, a lot of, you know, experience, advice, suggestions. If there was just one thing, one main thing that someone listening to this could take away, whether that's a, you know, someone primarily who's working in education, what's what's the, the most important thing you'd like them to take away from this conversation? You know what it is technology and the Internet has opened up so many great opportunities for us and most people. Always remember most people have a pretty good time online, including children. It would be to acknowledge the dangers of real. As a carer, I have a right to get involved and is basically using the skills I already have, my instincts, my life skills, and by keeping talking to young people about technology and we're just going to see issues drop away. The bad things happen in private. So it's all about that conversation and that communication.

46:21 I'd like to make it a lot more clever and interesting and complex, but I really don't believe that is. Fantastic. Well, that's, I think that's a great place to leave it, Brett. So look, thanks so much, really appreciate your time today sharing your, your, your knowledge and experience and and background just so, so valuable and and interesting. Thanks so much. Thank you, Kevin. It's been an absolute pleasure. Good luck for 2026 and the same to all your listeners. Thanks so much for listening to the episode. If you enjoyed this conversation, don't forget to subscribe, like, follow, et cetera. Drop a comment below to let me know anything you'd like covered in upcoming episodes or suggestions for future guests. You can also connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn.