Bria Bloom

1
00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,119
Welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

2
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,240
I'm excited to welcome my guest
today, Bria Bloom.

3
00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,920
Bria grew up unschooled and is
now a parent of two.

4
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,040
She's a passionate advocate for
self-directed education and

5
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,960
children's rights and loves to
work and play as an SDE

6
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,800
facilitator.
She's the Co founder of Flying

7
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,440
Squads and is a coach, a writer
and a facilitator.

8
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,800
Welcome, Bria.
So I'm wondering if we can start

9
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,600
you can tell us a little bit
about yourself and the work that

10
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:35,360
you're doing.
Yeah.

11
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,240
So as you know from this
podcast, I'm sure in your work,

12
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,560
there's so many different types
of alternative education as you

13
00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,760
really advocates for this one
kind that centers on the

14
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,720
autonomy and agency of young
people and is built on the

15
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,200
foundation of understanding how
humans have learned for

16
00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,360
thousands and thousands and
thousands of years before we

17
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,520
invented school basically.
So that is our focus.

18
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,560
And then there's a bunch of
different people doing this in

19
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,160
different ways.
There's homeschoolers, which in

20
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,440
the US at least, we call
unschoolers a lot of the time.

21
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,960
Of course there's arguments over
all of these terms because terms

22
00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,160
are imperfect at best, but a lot
of people self identify as

23
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,720
unschoolers.
And then there's centers and

24
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,400
schools that also follow this
philosophy, co-ops, micro

25
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,920
schools, all those kinds of
things.

26
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,000
And all of those people would be
under this umbrella where we're

27
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,600
building an alliance of like
resources and support and

28
00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,880
connections.
We can advocate and make this

29
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,600
more accessible for more
families.

30
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,320
So what?
What drew you into this work?

31
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,200
What prompted you to devote a
big part of your life to it?

32
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:55,680
Well, I was an unschooler myself
growing up, so it's interesting.

33
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,680
I don't know how international
your audience is.

34
00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,640
We do support internationally.
At the Alliance.

35
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,520
We are now like an international
organization, but in the United

36
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,160
States we have a lot a couple
key people who really helped

37
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,880
drove drive the unschooling
movement and the this type of

38
00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,800
homeschooling early on.
So John Holt was one of them.

39
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,720
And my dad read John Holt.
He also read as Neil's

40
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,240
Summerhill book, which I know a
lot of people are familiar with

41
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,280
as well internationally.
And those were kind of the two

42
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,000
people who are writing about
this in this context.

43
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,640
And he read those and then he
kind of raised us in that

44
00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:40,880
fashion for the most part.
So I identify as an unschooler

45
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,920
growing up.
And then when I ran into, as do

46
00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:49,040
people including Peter Gray,
who's a huge free play advocate,

47
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,160
wrote the book Free to Learn,
which talks about a lot of these

48
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,440
ideas.
I ran into him at a conference

49
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,920
and just kind of pitched an idea
and got involved.

50
00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:02,840
And I had kind of gotten not
away from my unschooling roots,

51
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,840
but like I was in early
childhood because that's a place

52
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,200
where still in the United
States, not always, but a lot of

53
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,240
times you can allow the kids to
play and be themselves and

54
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,280
engage in that way.
So I really wanted to be in a

55
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,360
place where that was an option.
And I did want to eventually

56
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,960
start some sort of alternative
school, although I hadn't been

57
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,960
exposed to the types of schools
that I've been exposed to now,

58
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,760
which I would base based my
ideas on.

59
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,800
But then once I started with
ASDI, like all the childhood

60
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,160
memories and what was really
like baked into me and made me

61
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,760
feel really happy about my
upbringing, really good about

62
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,160
it, came out again through that
work.

63
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,480
I was like, oh, this is where I
meant to be.

64
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,040
This feels really good.
I really want to help other kids

65
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,720
and families have access to
this.

66
00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,280
So for anyone who might be new
to this concept, how do you

67
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,960
explain self-directed education
in kind of plain language,

68
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,280
especially to people who might
be skeptical or, you know, be

69
00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,880
more familiar with traditional
kind of school systems?

70
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,160
Yeah, so self-directed education
was actually coined and created

71
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,120
by that team back in 2016.
But it's a concept that's built

72
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,200
on the way, especially from
Peter's research and other

73
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,920
researchers.
He's an evolutionary

74
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,320
psychologist who studied hunter
gatherer cultures.

75
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:27,840
And how?
Because that was us for

76
00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:29,160
thousands and thousands of
years.

77
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,120
That was humanity, right?
So how they raise their children

78
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,040
even now, but also in the past
historically, and how those

79
00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,080
children learn from their
traditions.

80
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,440
So it's built on this deep
history of humanity and this is

81
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:47,480
just a way to repackage it for
the century we're in now for the

82
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,720
ideas we have based on school,
for how education has been for

83
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,360
the last however many years
since school was invented and

84
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,480
people have been really bought
into school.

85
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,960
So it's just this repackaged
idea that was already there.

86
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,880
So I like to start with that,
but as he has its own

87
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,840
definition, and we kind of start
with the definition of education

88
00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:11,120
because education has really
become synonymous with schooling

89
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,760
for a lot of people.
So we think of the word

90
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,200
education, we think of the word
school.

91
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,600
And as he really wants to get
away from that, education

92
00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,800
doesn't have to mean school, and
school actually doesn't have to

93
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,600
mean what we what we think of it
as.

94
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,040
Now, a school can be so many
different things, but that's a

95
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,760
different topic.
So for education, we like to

96
00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,080
define that first so people know
what we're working with.

97
00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,160
Our working definition of
education.

98
00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,840
Education is the sum of
everything a person learns that

99
00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:43,160
supports them towards living a
satisfying and meaningful life.

100
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,240
So then moving on to
self-directed education.

101
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,600
self-directed education that
derives from the self chosen

102
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,480
activities and life experiences
of the learner, whether or not

103
00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,520
those activities were chosen
deliberately for the purpose of

104
00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,480
education.
You left for a second.

105
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,000
Do you want me to pause or are
you good?

106
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,840
No, that's OK.
That's OK.

107
00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,240
Thank you for thank you for
continuing on.

108
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:11,160
SO, so I guess leading on from
that a little bit, what, what

109
00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,720
are some of the most common
misconceptions that you see or

110
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,640
hear about self-directed
education and learning?

111
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:19,840
Yeah.
And I want to expand a tiny bit

112
00:06:19,840 --> 00:06:23,080
on that definition because
that's very, I don't know, short

113
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,800
tidbit of a definition and not
really what it looks like in

114
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,200
life for me.
And I know we're not there yet

115
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,160
in society, but for me, like
self-directed education means we

116
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,640
live our lives and we understand
that learning derives from that.

117
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,160
There's a lot of learning that
happens just in conversations

118
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,240
with people just trying to
manage relationships, conflict,

119
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,440
learning how to cook in your
home, watching your parents read

120
00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,920
stories, oral storytelling, like
playing video games.

121
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,280
Like all these things amount to
our education.

122
00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:00,000
And I think we do have to be
more deliberate in that having

123
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,320
access to people who can teach
us things to having mentors, to

124
00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,720
having classes, just having a
lot of people who know these

125
00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,640
skills and being exposed to
those skills because there might

126
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,880
be something you don't know you
want to learn if you're just,

127
00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,400
you know, in your own family
unit without exposure to these

128
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,320
things.
We have to be really deliberate,

129
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,000
especially because most of our
access to quote UN quote,

130
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,080
education is in schools.
So if you're not going to

131
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,480
school, you have to be more
deliberate and finding more

132
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,600
opportunities.
But eventually, personally, I'd

133
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,000
like to get to the point where
we understand that we live life

134
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,640
and we learn from that.
Look, you mentioned the word

135
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,680
deliberate before and I like
that because a lot of people

136
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,600
assume maybe self-directed
learning is a lot more

137
00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,480
unstructured.
So what are some of the kinds of

138
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,280
structures and things that sit
behind being a bit more

139
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,200
deliberate?
Yeah, it is an interesting topic

140
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,800
that always comes up.
People think self-directed

141
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,040
education or unschooling or any
of those things where kids have

142
00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:10,360
choice means no structure.
I think it really it does highly

143
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,000
depend on the family, on the
kid.

144
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:18,560
So basically you are creating
your own structure as a family,

145
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,360
as an individual and that can
look so many different ways

146
00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:30,160
depending on who you are.
So I had I had a really like

147
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,240
eclectic way my schedule looked
as I when I was a kid and as I

148
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,200
got older and I really like
built that and chose that for

149
00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:43,559
myself.
And when we had our first kid

150
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,080
move in with us full time, he's
my stepson.

151
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,680
So he moved in full time long
time ago.

152
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,600
He was young.
That kind of like eclectic

153
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,240
building of a schedule didn't
function for him.

154
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,320
And I was like, this is not the
kind of unschooling that works

155
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,760
for this child.
It worked for me as a kid.

156
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,080
That doesn't mean it works for
him.

157
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:04,880
It's a very different
disposition.

158
00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,840
We're in a different city, a
different situation.

159
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:12,440
So he really needed to go to a
school every day, like a

160
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,440
self-directed school every day
where he knew he was going to

161
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,640
this place, he knew what their
structure was.

162
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,000
Of course there's like so much
freedom in their day, but it's

163
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,080
like predictable and that who's
going to show up, what offerings

164
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,960
they have when they go every
day, when they get picked up

165
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,200
every day when morning meeting
as things like that.

166
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,520
So that felt like a easier
container for him to build what

167
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,440
he wanted to do with his day.
So it really, really varies.

168
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,480
I mean, sometimes you have
families where both parents have

169
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,280
to work and then you have to
build structure based on what's

170
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,720
accessible to that family.
Sometimes you have kids who want

171
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,560
things blocked out.
They're like, oh, I want to do

172
00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:53,160
this in the morning and then
have my afternoon time be free

173
00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:57,840
or I want to make sure I go to
this school or center like these

174
00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,440
two days a week.
So I know that's really

175
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,680
structured for me.
And then the other three days a

176
00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,760
week, we see friends, we go on
field trips or we stay home.

177
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,520
So it really it's more of a
build your own structure is the

178
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,400
difference.
But it doesn't mean it's just

179
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:17,800
like, free for all the time.
And I want to go back a little

180
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,280
bit.
You mentioned now that your

181
00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,280
organization works
internationally.

182
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,040
So I'm wondering if there's some
interesting things that you've

183
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,200
noticed in this kind of work
across cultures and across

184
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,680
countries.
Yeah, and it is really hard

185
00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:33,840
because I am only steeped in the
culture I'm in, so I don't like

186
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,520
to speak for other cultures and
countries.

187
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,040
But a lot of the things we've
really learned and part of the

188
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,600
reason we didn't want to be
international at first is that

189
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,360
the situation with how
compulsory schooling is,

190
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,240
especially in Europe, a lot of
European countries is very

191
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,000
different than United States,
United States, everything single

192
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,680
state allows you to homeschool
legally.

193
00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:02,120
And that's not true.
And a lot of other countries, a

194
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,520
lot of other countries, you have
to send your kid to school.

195
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,120
And that's a very different
reality for parents who are

196
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,600
like, I don't want to send my
kid to school.

197
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:12,760
And I don't know what the
options are.

198
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,680
Some of these places allow SDE
schools, so that's always an

199
00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,280
option.
But a lot of times you have to

200
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,400
pay.
And if you can't pay, you're out

201
00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,520
of luck or there isn't one in
your area because they're still

202
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,200
pretty scarce.
So I think that's the biggest

203
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,960
difference.
Another difference that is very

204
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:35,720
true, I think in places like
like Africa, like South America,

205
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,600
with like a deep cultural
history and tradition, is that

206
00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:45,960
we have decided globally, the
Western society I think has

207
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,320
decided that school is the best
way to get a leg up.

208
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,520
And because school is the best
way to get a leg up, that

209
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,920
actually is kind of a self
fulfilling prophecy.

210
00:11:55,680 --> 00:12:00,760
So we go in and we say, well,
these poor third world countries

211
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,400
like their kids just need school
that will help them get a leg up

212
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,360
and then be able to work in the
global, global economy or

213
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,040
whatever it is.
And maybe that's true in that

214
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,960
now they can enter that job
force that looks that way, but

215
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,320
that doesn't mean it's
preserving their culture and

216
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,080
their needs and their areas and
villages.

217
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,640
And I'm not going to remember
it, but there's a really great

218
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,120
documentary of schooling the
World by Carol Black is a really

219
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,760
great one to watch if you want
to learn more about this.

220
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,960
It is not my area of expertise,
so I'm speaking very generally

221
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,120
here.
And then we've also have a

222
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,720
couple pieces written where
someone has told a story about

223
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:46,520
how they went in to a village,
this was in India and start,

224
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,480
they were like, oh, these people
need education.

225
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,360
So they start building this
school and then after a few

226
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,480
years, they were told by the
villagers, but the elders, like,

227
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:57,800
our kids can't communicate with
us anymore.

228
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,600
They can't tend our crops.
They can't like, engage in our

229
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,280
traditions.
Like you are ruining our

230
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:07,520
culture.
Basically.

231
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,440
You're changing it into this
other culture to make them fit

232
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,560
into the society that you've
decided is better.

233
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,600
So it's this really tough thing
where I think in theory people

234
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,400
think they're helping, but what
they're doing is deciding 1

235
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,840
cultural way of being and way of
working is better than an.

236
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,280
Yeah, that's really, it's really
interesting to, you know, think

237
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,760
about how we've just
superimposed this model of what

238
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,480
we think is best in education
really right around the world

239
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,880
and the the kind of the
arrogance and hubris that goes

240
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:45,760
along with that.
Yes.

241
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:51,280
Yes.
So sort of changing tack a

242
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,000
little bit in schools and, and
leaders and teachers, you know,

243
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,600
think about how do we know it's
working?

244
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,240
How do we know that kids are
learning?

245
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:01,960
You know, what's the, what's the
impact that we're having?

246
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,760
What's the evidence that shows
that?

247
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:04,800
What?
What does that?

248
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,000
How do you answer that question
in in self-directed education?

249
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,480
It's funny, a friend that was
talking to me the other day,

250
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,920
friend and colleague, and he was
like, what research studies do

251
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,360
we need in self-directed
education?

252
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,800
And I was like, honestly, I
think we need to take on

253
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,960
schoolers and self-directed kids
who go to self-directed schools

254
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,640
and give them standardized tests
and then show everyone their

255
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,080
test scores.
Because I know plenty of kids,

256
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,000
myself included, who didn't do
any of the academic studying and

257
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,480
we got totally fine or great
test scores.

258
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,320
And even though I think we
actually need to get away from

259
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:43,480
standardized testing overall,
it's something very tangible and

260
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,960
very academic that I think would
prove to a lot of people who

261
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,480
want to see those numbers that
like, oh, even if they're not in

262
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,760
school doing these things 24/7,
not 24/7, but you know what I

263
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,640
mean?
Even if they're not in school

264
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,960
all the time studying for these
tests, they're still going to be

265
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,120
able to understand and pass
these tests.

266
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,720
And I think that's a really easy
metric to prove.

267
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,840
But I also don't believe
standardized test scores show us

268
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:16,400
that much about society and
learning and long term success.

269
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,040
So it's almost like we're trying
to play that game just to prove

270
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,800
it.
But then also I want to wipe

271
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,240
away standardized testing in
general personally.

272
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,320
So, but it is interesting.
I think it's part of the problem

273
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,160
here with self-directed
education and kind of

274
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,720
illustrates that, is that it's
hard to prove because what we're

275
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,800
trying to prove, I think what
we're trying to prove is will

276
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,720
your kids be OK?
Will they get jobs?

277
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,800
Will they be happy and healthy?
Will they be able to contribute

278
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,200
to their communities?
Will they have good

279
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,920
relationships?
Like I think that's what we're

280
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,920
trying to prove.
And that's like a long study

281
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,040
with a lot of subjective
variables.

282
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,880
And I think there's other things
we can study like the test

283
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,960
scores, like if they get into
colleges, what jobs they have,

284
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,800
but it doesn't tell us the
overall well-being or

285
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,360
satisfaction of a person's life
overall doesn't tell us about

286
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,480
their mental health.
So there's so many things,

287
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,400
variables that go into this that
I think are really tough to

288
00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,240
study.
So in terms of like proving it,

289
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,280
I would go the more standardized
metrics way, just check those

290
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,480
boxes, make people see that like
it can be done, they'll be OK.

291
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,520
But in terms of what I actually
think we need to know, I think

292
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,520
it's just really hard to design
those studies.

293
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,040
You need like 2 decade, 3 decade
long studies, right, that follow

294
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,320
these people.
And then you need to control for

295
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:43,200
family and other factors that
really, really change how people

296
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,720
end up.
And, and I think you're exactly

297
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,720
right when you, you know,
standardized testing is very

298
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,840
narrow and at scope and you
know, it misses out on just

299
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,000
this, a lot of this richness
that you talk about in all of

300
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,400
these really wonderful deep
learning and, and dispositions

301
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:04,880
that we want for our young
people.

302
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:10,200
So I love how you framed that.
So to take that, I guess a

303
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,800
little step further, are there
any examples of learner

304
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,280
outcomes?
So for people that are

305
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:23,400
unschooled, as as you said, that
surprise people, so kids that go

306
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,000
through young people that go
through this unschooling

307
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,640
experience, what are the things
that surprise people about the

308
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,760
either the intended or
unintended consequences of of of

309
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,320
this?
It's a good question and I think

310
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,320
a lot of it actually has to do
with the misconceptions piece as

311
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,920
well.
Even just the word

312
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,920
homeschooling.
I wouldn't tell people and when

313
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,640
I went to college that I was
homeschooled until they knew me

314
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,360
and then I'd be like, Oh, I was
homeschooled and they were like,

315
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,120
you don't seem homeschooled.
Nothing about you like that is

316
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,320
not you seem like the least
homeschooled person ever.

317
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,880
I'm like, Oh, you you mean
because I can socialize, because

318
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,760
I can keep a quote UN quote
academically, like because I can

319
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,040
function really well on my own.
Like what?

320
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,360
What preconceived notions?
And I think it is the

321
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:15,040
socialization piece.
So I think that's one thing that

322
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,960
surprises people if they allow
themselves to be surprised, if

323
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,280
they allow their preconceived
notions not to get in the way of

324
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,360
how they're viewing a person,
which is why I like didn't tell

325
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,080
people 1st and like get to know
me and then you can find out.

326
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,240
But yeah, I think that's one
thing.

327
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:39,400
Like how capable and social and
really like able to integrate

328
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,680
into society these people are.
I think another thing is just

329
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,760
like the breadth of jobs that
are available.

330
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:55,640
I it's easy to think that if you
don't do math for what is it, 12

331
00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,120
years of your life, at least in
the United States, you won't be

332
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:03,400
able to catch up later and get a
job that requires math.

333
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,760
That's just not true, especially
like there's been, it's

334
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,040
anecdotal, but there's
definitely been evidence that

335
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,280
these people can catch up with
math and six months of studying

336
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,760
after not doing it for the 1st
10 years or more of their lives.

337
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,200
So these things that we think if
you miss out on this opportunity

338
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,440
to learn it, like when you're
younger, you won't be able to do

339
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,080
it.
It's just not true for most

340
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,280
subjects.
Language, language is 1 where

341
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,880
that's that's very accurate for
that.

342
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,400
There's this key window for
being really good at learning

343
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,440
language, for speaking it
natively, but that's before

344
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,920
you're even in school.
So that's not even school

345
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,360
related.
But yeah, I think people being

346
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:49,320
able to do these things so
quickly and like really catch up

347
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,280
to where their peers are is
another surprise.

348
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,320
And then just the breadth of
opportunities available to them,

349
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,400
even when they didn't go through
what people consider the norm,

350
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,240
is another thing that's
surprising.

351
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,680
And you mentioned there's some
of the preconceived notions and

352
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,600
misconceptions.
So I certainly as, as you were

353
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,920
saying that, I thought back to
some previous roles I've had

354
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,280
where I've conducted in
traditional schools, the

355
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,880
admissions kind of interviews
and, and things for students

356
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,560
coming in.
And when I've seen on the

357
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,680
paperwork before, I've met the
student that they've, they might

358
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,800
be coming into grade 9 or grade
8 or something like that.

359
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,280
And they've never been to
school.

360
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,560
So they've been homeschooled.
They're coming to school for the

361
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,600
first time.
And I did have a, a preconceived

362
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,040
notion in, in my head of what
this child would be like that

363
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,040
they might not be well socially
adjusted.

364
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,680
They might be behind in certain
academic areas.

365
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:49,480
And just in this little, you
know, anecdotal evidence, I was

366
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,040
wrong in every single case of
those students.

367
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,760
And they were, whether that's by
chance or design, I, I don't

368
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,640
know, but they certainly what I
did notice about those kids,

369
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,560
yes, they did maybe have some
gaps in academic knowledge in,

370
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,280
in places, but what they, they
far excelled in, they were, they

371
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,360
knew how to learn like they were
curious and they were good

372
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,880
learners.
They, they perhaps didn't have

373
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,520
all the content, but they, you
know, they were very independent

374
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,880
learners and self-directed that,
that they could just pick things

375
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,120
up and, and, and go away with
them, you know, in six months

376
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:29,280
time, you know, there was no
difference.

377
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,320
So that for most of them they
were, you know, well advanced of

378
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,200
their their peers.
Yeah, I think you've hit the

379
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,040
nail on the head there.
And if you have that curiosity

380
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,280
and desire to learn, the other
things are easier.

381
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,040
They're easier to like catch up
on.

382
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,360
They're easier to delve into.
I also, I don't like to present

383
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:52,440
an idealized version of this.
I like to be careful.

384
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,680
I don't think that it makes like
better humans.

385
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,880
I don't even like that term
better humans.

386
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:05,240
Like I, I want to recognize that
there's a lot of room for

387
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:11,120
difficulties, for mistakes made
and mistakes made are, are OK,

388
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:15,520
but for like big mistakes made.
I think it's really, you have to

389
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,880
be really available mentally,
emotionally and very intentional

390
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,560
as a parent in this situation
because you're not, it's, you

391
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,560
can't just send them to the
school and be like, OK, that's

392
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,280
the thing we're doing now.
I cannot think about it.

393
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,960
You have to really see what's
happening for your kids, see if

394
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,160
they're getting what they need,
see it like what kind of social

395
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,320
situations they need to be in,
Seek those things out for them.

396
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,120
It's different in every city and
every family.

397
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:51,080
And like, the biggest issue I
have is that there's just not

398
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,560
that many kids.
Like, my oldest is almost 15

399
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,000
now.
The kids are in high school

400
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,840
especially it was self-directed
education and unschooling.

401
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,560
That's when parents panic the
most is when kids get to high

402
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,000
school.
So it's more often that kids

403
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,560
will jump to school, jump ship
and jump to school at that age.

404
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,760
So there's even less teenagers.
So in order to access kids

405
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,800
socially like they're in high
school, it's so hard to do a

406
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:20,320
thing and find people and
friends and access when everyone

407
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,920
is in the school system,
mentional school system.

408
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,520
So that makes it really hard and
you have to really seek things

409
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,560
out and work harder.
There's definitely accounts, and

410
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,960
we're seeing this in the US at
least more often.

411
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,320
People who their parents call
them unschoolers, I would not

412
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,400
call this unschooling, but to
each their own.

413
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,160
And they felt like they were
kept from school, like they were

414
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,960
not given the tools they wanted
or needed or access that they

415
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,080
wanted.
And I think that if you're a

416
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,480
young person wants to go to
school, keeping them from school

417
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,560
is not unschooling because
unschooling involves allowing

418
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,000
your kid to make the choice.
So if you're saying I don't

419
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,520
believe in school, I don't want
you to make that choice.

420
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,520
Now you're controlling your kid
in a different way.

421
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,920
So if your kid wants to go to
school, you should let them try

422
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,000
that.
So there's definitely cases

423
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,560
where this has gone really
wrong.

424
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:18,520
And if we look at the amount of
kids percentage wise compared to

425
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,640
the amount of kids in
conventional schools where

426
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,040
they're suffering emotionally,
mentally, even academically when

427
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,400
they get to college or careers,
like there is an astronomical

428
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,960
percentage of kids in
conventional schools suffering.

429
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,240
So I think it's really easy to
take the outliers of unschooling

430
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,000
when you're doing an outlier
thing and point to them as

431
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,560
examples for why you shouldn't
do it.

432
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,880
But then we forget about the
huge percentage of kids and

433
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,760
doing the conventional thing who
are suffering as well.

434
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,960
I just don't think there's a
magic pill where everything's

435
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,320
going to be perfect for every
kid.

436
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,120
Like, we're still going to make
mistakes.

437
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,720
But I also think like
conventional school isn't doing

438
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,920
it either for them.
It's not working for everyone

439
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,080
either.
And you mentioned conventional

440
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,120
schools there.
So if someone working in a

441
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,480
conventional school is listening
to some of this and is like

442
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,440
fantastic, I want to try some of
this.

443
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,920
I want to bring elements of this
into my classroom or my school.

444
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,880
What What is 1 or what is some
initial realistic kind of

445
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,960
practical steps that that people
would do without blowing

446
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,840
everything up but taking some
steps in this direction?

447
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:31,960
Well here at least you can't
blow everything up in the school

448
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,400
because you're answering to the
administration.

449
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,360
So it really depends on your
school.

450
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:42,600
I actually, if you're OK with
this, I, my colleague and I had

451
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,880
a podcast with a school teacher
who tries to bring these

452
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,360
principals in.
So I would go listen to that

453
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:52,560
because she's been doing it for
years and she also talks about

454
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,760
how.
You can give it a, give it a.

455
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,400
Yeah, give it a.
Plug here if you like.

456
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,920
So people know where to find it.
Yeah, it's Rethinking

457
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,720
Self-directed Education as the
podcast and the episode was with

458
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,280
Sarita, but I don't remember the
name of the episode.

459
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,600
I can send it to you for the
notes if that's helpful.

460
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,920
Yeah, great.
Perfect.

461
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,160
But yeah, she also talks about
how like it depends on what

462
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,160
your, who your principal is,
what your administration is

463
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,560
like, who your she is, a
teaching partner, who your

464
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,560
teaching partner is, who the
other teachers are.

465
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,960
Because if you're doing
something so different with all

466
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,960
these teachers around you or
admin who don't agree with it,

467
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,640
that makes it really, really
difficult.

468
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,040
But I've talked to a lot of
people who have taught in

469
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,120
schools in different ways about
this.

470
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:45,640
And I think the bottom line is
how you present your authority

471
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,680
to the kids and what your
relationship is like with the

472
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,440
kids.
So even if you can't have free

473
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,000
choice, even if you're like
stuck with this curriculum and

474
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,360
you can just do choice within
the curriculum or you're stuck

475
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,360
in this classroom, you're stuck
on this timetable or schedule,

476
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,000
what you can do is change the
way you relate to the kids in

477
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,360
your class.
You can set up your classroom to

478
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:13,080
be like more comfortable.
You can have like pillows and

479
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,960
couches instead of desks where
they have to sit and watch you.

480
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,800
You can sit in circles and you
can really like you can be

481
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,680
honest with the kids.
Obviously it depends on age, but

482
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,640
she talks about elementary
school age kids.

483
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,960
So I think any kid who's old
enough for that school, at least

484
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,280
in the US, is probably old
enough to understand this.

485
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,000
Be honest with them.
Like we are in this system, the

486
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,600
situation that requires us to do
these things.

487
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,680
And I actually don't love it
either.

488
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,160
Like I'm required to do these
things too.

489
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,880
And I know it doesn't always
feel good for you.

490
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,800
And we're going to do our best
to work within the requirements

491
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,160
and have as much freedom for
that as possible.

492
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,400
And I'm here with you in this.
So how can we make this

493
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,560
experience the best for all of
us within the constraints we

494
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,800
have?
Just be honest.

495
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,480
Instead of being the agent of
the school, trying to exert

496
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,680
authority over the kids, change
your role and be a partner with

497
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,080
the kids, dealing with the
system that we're all in.

498
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,120
And I think that's the most
important piece is changing your

499
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:19,520
relationship with the kids.
Now that's it can be really hard

500
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,320
if you don't know how to do I do
it.

501
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,200
I think some people already have
that frame and them and some

502
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,800
don't and that's OK.
So there's like a lot of

503
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,040
unlearning about I think a
teacher or adult's role that you

504
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,360
need to do and as do you would
call that deschooling.

505
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,640
So if you look up that term,
there's a lot of resources you

506
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,760
can find for that.
More practical things I've heard

507
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,720
of teachers doing like a 2 hour
block or session.

508
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,040
This is usually for older kids.
I think that's opt in.

509
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,360
That's like the self-directed
education session and it's all

510
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,080
self-directed education in those
two hours.

511
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,200
I've also heard that those have
been really successful and that

512
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,600
the kids do amazing things.
They love it more.

513
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,800
People keep signing up and admin
sometimes shuts them down

514
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,240
anyway.
So that's really difficult.

515
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,200
But I think it's something you
could propose depending on where

516
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,360
you work and you could try that
out as well.

517
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,320
And I do have articles from a
teacher who did that.

518
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,760
He wrote like a four point
series on how that worked for

519
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,600
him.
And I loved how you framed about

520
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,760
for educators, you know, kind of
reframing their relationship

521
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,680
with the young people in the
classroom because that can be

522
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,960
really vulnerable for people
personally and professionally

523
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,840
to, to change, to change that.
And it takes, it takes a bit of

524
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,680
courage to do that for a lot of
people.

525
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,800
All right.
Well, look, I've got a couple of

526
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,720
quick questions just to to wrap
things up, if that's OK with

527
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,200
you, a leader past or present
that you admire.

528
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:59,440
I have a hard time with this
question, but a leader I think I

529
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,120
have a hard time with this
question because so many leaders

530
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,760
like all humans have so many
flaws.

531
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,200
So I'm like, this person has is
amazing and these qualities, but

532
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,640
also has all these flaws.
I think I would say John Holtz

533
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,560
when I'm talking about this
work, especially because he was

534
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,640
one of the first ones to look at
school and be like, why are we

535
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,480
doing this to kids and really
write about it and be very vocal

536
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,360
about it in a time when a lot of
people weren't.

537
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,840
So I think that was pretty
brave.

538
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,600
And he was known as a really
great teacher.

539
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,080
So somehow he did all that and
was still known in a really

540
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,280
great way with the people he was
working with.

541
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,600
Your favorite book?
My favorite book, I would say

542
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,400
right now we're talking about
this.

543
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,040
I love fiction, but I won't talk
about fiction right now.

544
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,880
My favorite book is The Gardener
and the Carpenter by Allison

545
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,640
Gopnik.
I would say she's another person

546
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,760
I admire.
She does a lot of research on

547
00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:01,120
how babies learn and think, and
her book talks about talks about

548
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:06,200
how to be a parent and the ways
in which we think we have

549
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,560
control as parents when really
we have very limited control.

550
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,400
And she talks all about that in
the book.

551
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,480
But I really recommend.
That, and finally, best advice

552
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,120
you've ever received.
That's a really hard question.

553
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,640
Have you had to answer these
questions yourself?

554
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,160
Have you asked yourself these?
I I I have not.

555
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,240
I have not because they are hard
questions.

556
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,480
Best advice, best advice.
I don't think I have a one liner

557
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,200
for this, I think maybe I do and
I'm not.

558
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,360
I'm not sure when or who I
received this from but I think

559
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,720
find your people is the best
advice I have heard and then I

560
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:54,280
have and that is reiterated
amongst my like groups and

561
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,320
communities so many times.
And by that I mean the people

562
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,920
who will hold you when things
are hard and challenge you and

563
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,280
like push back and that you
trust them enough to do that.

564
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,200
And they, they know and trust
you enough to do that.

565
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,440
So not just the people who are
going to be like, yes, yes,

566
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,720
people to you all the time, but
the ones that will like

567
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,640
challenge you and have this like
deep support.

568
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,480
Fantastic.
Well, I think that's a good

569
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,240
place to leave things Bria.
So thank you so much for for

570
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,560
joining me today.
I've really enjoyed our

571
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:24,920
conversation.
Thank you so much.

572
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:26,280
Yeah.
Thank you, Kevin.

573
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,360
I appreciate it.
Thanks so much for listening to

574
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:29,960
the episode.
If you enjoyed this

575
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,680
conversation, don't forget to
subscribe, like, follow, etc.

576
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,960
Drop a comment below to let me
know anything you'd like covered

577
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,840
in upcoming episodes or
suggestions for future guests.

578
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,760
You can also connect with me on
Instagram and LinkedIn.