Dr. Megan Khairallah

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Welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

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I'm excited to welcome my guest
today, Doctor Megan Cruella.

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Megan is an experienced
educator, leader, and researcher

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with over 30 years in the field
of education.

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She runs her own consultancy
supporting schools in

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accreditation, strategic
planning, and leadership

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development.
She holds a doctorate in

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education from Teachers College,
Columbia University, an

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executive MBA from the
University of Balamont.

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She began her career as a middle
and high school language teacher

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before becoming Professor and
Chair of the Department of

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Education at the University of
Balamont.

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From 2021 to 2024, she was
secondary school principal at

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International College Beirut,
leading the school through the

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post COVID transition and
national crises while overseeing

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4 academic programs and
advancing multiple accreditation

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processes.
She's now an adjunct professor

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at the University of Belmont.
Welcome, Megan.

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Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.

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And Kevin, I want to say I'm a
big fan.

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I've been watching your podcast
and I'm so happy to be on it

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here today.
Well, I'm looking forward to our

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our conversation.
So I wonder if we could start

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with what inspired you to get
into international schools and

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education and become an
education leader.

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Well, so it's just a lifelong
journey.

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I'm a third.
Well, I'm what was then

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considered the third culture kid
between Lebanon and the United

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States because of the war moving
back and forth.

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And so my love for international
education and leadership has

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helped me along this path.
I think nowadays the, the term

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third culture kid is a bit old
and maybe we need to think of

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new definitions for that.
But really the defining moment

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to become a leader was I think
COVID because I had been at the

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university for, for 15 years
and, and working in higher Ed,

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but but as an education
professor.

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And so I felt COVID gave me the
chance to think, OK, maybe I

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need to switch in a career and
become a leader in a school.

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And I was lucky enough to be
able to go back to my school and

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to be able to go back to the
school in which I taught to to

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be a leader.
And it must have been such a

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challenging time.
It certainly was for so many

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people during COVID.
And you know, as the shift to

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online and in person and hybrid
and, you know, looking after

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people's well-being, you know,
staff and students, such a

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challenging time.
You know, one of the biggest

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challenges is was around
inclusion, how to to make sure

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that people were included in
that sense of belonging still

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existed.
So how do you kind of define

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that inclusive leadership in a
school and how has that maybe

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evolved since Covad?
I think, and I and I keep on the

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thinking about it and talking
about it and I think we're at

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the at the very beginning of
what what has been a paradigm

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shift in education overall.
Kovid was global, but also

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Lebanon and specific had many,
many issues at the same time.

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We had we had the COVID
epidemic, we had the financial

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crisis, we had the Beirut
explosion, we've had political

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unrest.
And so all of these aspects have

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come together.
And I think redefining education

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in general, but international
education probably in specific

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because we have moving, you
know, families who are moving

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all around.
Inclusion has to be at the heart

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of all that we do because it's
not just academic inclusion,

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it's it's socio emotion,
emotional well-being.

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How do we create a places in
international schools that

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really create that enormous
sense of belonging?

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And that's what we need.
We need to look for especially

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that, you know, not only just
technology, but AI and looking

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how AI effects our creative and
critical thinking.

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It's, it's a big conversation,
but also AI juxtaposed with,

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with student agency and then
then of course, social media.

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So technology is going to have a
big impact.

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I think our generation and I, I
want to include you in my

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generation, but I think you're a
bit younger.

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We, we, we can begin to study
and look at it, but I think we,

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we definitely need to include
the, the younger voices, the

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voices between all, all learners
up until, you know, in, in their

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30s because they were impacted
by COVID and, and they're going

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to have to redefine where we're
going, especially in education.

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And we were talking just earlier
before we started recording this

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a little bit about
accreditation.

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And you know, I think
accreditation can be regardless

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of the the agency organization
could be a wonderful driver for

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some of these things and a
wonderful partner for, you know,

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school improvement.
You know a lot of the work that

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you do as part of accreditation
supporting schools With that,

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what do you what do you see as
some of the biggest

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misconception about
accreditation and and processes

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in international schools?
Well, I don't know if there's a

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misconception because I think
most international schools, at

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least in Lebanon, but I know in
some of the other Gulf countries

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need to have accreditation if
they're offering an

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international program.
So accreditation agencies offer

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frameworks and, and the
accreditation agencies that I

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work offer frameworks for
reflection.

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And so the reflection is an
internal reflection.

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The, the accreditation visitors,
the, the frameworks help refine

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and define the pathways that
that reflection should go.

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But each school has its own
identity and its own ways in

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which it wants to reflect.
So I, I there might be

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misconceptions at the beginning
when the school starts what,

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what kind of agency they want to
go with and move forward, but a

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lot of them don't have a choice.
I, I cannot assume what choices

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or what decisions each school
will make, but I, I do know that

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once they do make that decision
and once they start in the

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reflection process, then
they're, they, they get this

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internal joy.
I think they go through the

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stages at first denial, you
know, those stages that you can

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go through, but, but then at the
end it's a big celebration.

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And then, then kind of like, OK,
we celebrate, we got accredited,

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but we have to start again in
five years.

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Yeah, we have to do it all
again.

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But, but for me, the
opportunities that accreditation

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throughout.
So I'm going to speak for

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Lebanon, for example.
So you have many, most private

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schools who offer international
programs going through

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accreditation, Then some schools
that don't that offer just the

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Lebanese back, they want to go
through the accreditation

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process themselves.
This creates a community of

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shared practices, shared
understanding, shared learning.

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And really my hope, my wish
would be for these schools to

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come together and benefit and
really tell their stories in

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order to help support other
schools.

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And that, and then the next
stage would be, I hope would be

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going into the, the, the public
school sector as well, working

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with the ministries of education
to help them just, you know,

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come into what, what private
schools have defined as best

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practices.
Maybe they will have an impact

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in the public schools.
So we heard in your bio a little

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bit earlier, you know, some of
your work in leadership

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positions in schools, in
universities as well.

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How do you balance that kind of
research and scholarly work with

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day-to-day demands of of leading
a school community?

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How do you get that kind of
balance right?

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I don't think you can.
I, I, I, I couldn't, I mean, I

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think it's extremely hard.
They're they're schools really

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take up all of your time.
I mean, I would, I would even

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say 24/7 and in the holidays,
you're still working.

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It depends what kind of leader
you are.

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But if you're this conscientious
leader who's who puts students

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first, it's, it's very, very
hard.

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So really my leadership journey
started with being an education

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professor and thinking of
looking at all these theories,

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theories of best practices and,
and in my research, just

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touching on what is actually
happening in schools.

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And then I had this yearning,
this real urge to go back into

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the schools.
And those three years I've

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learned the most the three years
of, of being the school leader,

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principal.
It was a big school.

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The school itself was 3600
students, but in the secondary

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school 700 and 5000 and 10
teachers, 35 staff, you know,

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double that amount of parents,
very concerned parents.

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And then the, you know, dealing
with, with all of the executive

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decisions and, and the governing
body.

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So it, it was a very, very busy
place.

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And on top of that, we had just
come out of COVID.

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There were a lot of, of, of not
just discipline, but just

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socializing, You know, students
coming back to learn how to

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socialize once again, full of
energy, had missed two years.

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And so in the secondary school,
they had missed middle school

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those years.
And so there was a lot of socio

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emotional learning and
psychosocial work to be done.

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And that also with the the
challenges of Lebanon.

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So, so it's very, very hard to
be a reflective practitioner in

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a, in a very, very busy school.
And so the balance, so my advice

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would be is really you have to
prioritize that that slot that

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you want.
The second thing is you have to

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be in a school that validates
and wants that kind of of a

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research mentality that really
wants to push forward along

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bringing in, you know, new, new
research.

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So it has to be, it has to be
decision making.

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It has to be part of strategic
planning and, and there has to

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be a system in it.
And, and so this, I would think

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bring in the team.
So if you want to have research

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in a school form, little action
research projects really, really

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make that happen to get that
done.

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But definitely it's worthwhile
and it will push your school

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forward and it will push you as
a leader forward as well.

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And you were talking there about
some of the the challenges

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coming out of COVID and
particularly in leadership

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positions.
What's the the toughest

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leadership challenge you've
faced and how did you navigate

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it?
I was really thinking about this

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because there were many, but
one, one story that is symbolic

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and, and I'll explain to you
why.

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So there was a day that there
had been some kind of shoot,

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shootout in a different part of
town.

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Two different groups were
shooting at one another.

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And it happened to be next to a
school.

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So, you know, social media.
So our school, we were all the

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schools in the country.
We're getting these images

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coming in and it caused a mass
panic.

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You know, 3600 students have all
the parents wanted to come and

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pick up their kids.
And so that was emergency

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decision making, you know, at at
its best.

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And, and it was chaotic or it
had the potential to be chaotic

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because not only were the
parents panicking, the kids also

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wanted to be let out of school
because they, you know, whether

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they were scared or not, they
wanted to be let out of school.

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And then also you had teachers
and you had teachers who, some

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of them had their kids in the
school and some of whom had

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their, their, their kids outside
of the school and also staff.

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And we weren't getting the
immediate decision making from

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the very, very top.
Each school had to kind of

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navigate on their own what we
were going to do because the

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really, I mean, to be very
honest, had had the, the

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president of the school said,
OK, parents, come get your, your

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kids, that would have caused
chaos and, and traffic jams, you

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know, and, and had we said,
don't come get your kids and the

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responsibilities.
It kind of, it was like this

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Gray zone and, and it was a
very, very high tense situation.

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The success story was we had the
systems in place.

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We had a really, really strong
team of staff of, of, of middle

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leaders and the system just fell
into place.

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You know, we, we had about 10
minutes of a leadership team

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meeting. 5 people will receive
phone calls, One person will,

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you know, bring in all of the
information.

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This group will deal with the
teachers, the teachers who have

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their kids outside, we'll send
them home.

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But the other teachers have to
stay in because we have to, to

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control advisors would take care
of each class.

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We'd have the checklist and and
within half an hour we developed

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this amazing communication
system because other thing too

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is we needed the signatures of
the parents or guardians in

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order to release the, the
students.

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We couldn't just release them on
the.

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So that was, was really a
logistical, it could have been a

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logistical nightmare, but it was
a logistical success.

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And, and looking back on that is
that had we not had that

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trusting group, that group with
the enormous sense of care, with

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the enormous, you know, sense of
we will stay until the very end.

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We also opened a little nursery
in one of the classrooms for the

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for the really younger kids who
are coming out from nursery and

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elementary, where were they
going to sit?

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And we had volunteers from all
aspects.

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And really the day ended
smoothly.

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I mean, it was exhausting,
exhausting.

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But we had all the paperwork, we
had all the documentation.

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We made sure the kids were home
safe.

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And, and that were, and so, you
know, that was a challenge.

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Just I mean, these things happen
in Lebanon.

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I think they happened in in some
other places as well.

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But you know, we had the
communication, we had the sense

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of trust, we had the sense of
system and each we had the

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roles, you know, the advisors
could do things.

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And so in that situation, it was
it was a success story.

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Sounds like a success and very,
very, very difficult and trying

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circumstances and definitely
taking crisis management to the

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the next kind of level.
Yeah.

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00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:14,760
Following that thread a little
bit more, I wonder if there's

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one mistake that has shaped your
leadership approach.

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00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,880
Thank you for that.
And that that was, you know,

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something mistakes never look at
mistakes because mistakes in

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00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,360
hindsight is, is just really
something that you haven't

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00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,560
reflected on and and moved
forward.

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We all make mistakes and I think
leaders definitely do make

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mistakes.
You can't.

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So what do we mean by a mistake?
I think if you're in a, in an

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organization, I think any
organization, not necessarily

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just a school in which you are
really supported in your

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00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,640
decision making and your
decision making is very, very

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clear.
And, and it is supported by not

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00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,160
just by, by, you know, the, the,
the leadership, the upper

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leadership and worked within the
strategic planning, but also you

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have the buy in of, of your
whole team.

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Those mistakes shouldn't happen
very often, but of course they

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do.
You know, you have moments where

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you go into meeting with a
parent completely unprepared and

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you get railroad railroaded or,
or, you know, you know, feel

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that.
Oh my God, that wasn't, that

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wasn't well planned.
You know, we, we do those things

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and then we learn from those
smaller mistakes going to bring

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in the students file and really
know what's going on before I

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walk in.
So we, we do have those kind of

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mistakes, but we in our, you
know, yearly evaluation or

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00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,040
yearly reflection really have to
work through those mistakes to

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00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,360
see how, how they can fit within
a system to make them better.

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I think for me, the biggest
mistake, and I wouldn't call

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00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,840
that mistake, I think it was a,
it was a misreading of an

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00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,960
International School.
I think international schools

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00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,560
are places where you're dealing
with different cultures.

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You have the international, the
internationals coming in, maybe

283
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,160
not necessarily for a very long
time, five years, eight years,

284
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and then they build up their
portfolio and they might move

285
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,760
somewhere else.
And that's kind of like the

286
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,280
path, the the, the career path
they go on.

287
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:27,360
And then you have the the
nationals, the locals, the

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people who are there forever.
And I think my biggest mistake

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00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,600
was not reading the vibes
between these two kinds of

290
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:41,960
cultures and making leadership
decisions that maybe seemed to

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00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,400
have favored one over the other.
And I can think of a, you know,

292
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:54,160
very specific example because as
a leader, I, I really admire

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00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,960
people who think with
innovation, you know, they look

294
00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,560
at their school and they say,
oh, you know, can we try this

295
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,440
thing just to make a little bit
better?

296
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,920
Or can we, you know, can we
tweak the career fair to include

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00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,960
to make it a bit bigger?
And, and my, my leadership says,

298
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:15,119
OK, let's pilot, you know, let's
going to be what we're going to

299
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,079
try to do.
Let's try it on a small scale

300
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,599
and, and I'll support you, but
you know, show me the steps that

301
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:22,640
you want to do and let, let's
try to get it done.

302
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,599
But when the pilot is
successful, other groups feel a

303
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,440
bit kind of left out.
And this causes a lot of

304
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,360
tension.
And and and I if if I had

305
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:38,160
hindsight and I could go back, I
think I would have read the room

306
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,520
a tiny bit better.
And going back to your earlier

307
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,920
comments area, I think that's
wonderful advice for new or

308
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,960
upcoming leaders or aspirational
leaders is you know your

309
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,800
description before about dealing
with that crisis management

310
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:58,320
occurrence and, and the learning
that comes from that dealing

311
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,600
with really difficult parents or
community members at times.

312
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,240
You know, just the experience of
of dealing with that gives you

313
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,400
so much learning that you then
can take in and do it better

314
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,200
next time or be more prepared
next time or identify those

315
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,320
parts.
And that's, I think, you know,

316
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,760
something that, yes, you can
understand sort of approaches or

317
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,960
frameworks, but unless you've
experienced it and had to deal

318
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,400
with it and made those kind of,
like you said, maybe not

319
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,160
mistakes, but maybe missteps.
And, you know, when on

320
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,040
reflection, you think I should
have really been more prepared

321
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,120
with that thing or I should have
thought about this and I'll make

322
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:36,520
sure that's in place for next
time.

323
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,120
Unless you go through that,
it's, you know, it's a very

324
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,280
steep learning curve sometimes
into leadership.

325
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,760
Yeah, yeah.
And I think what's different in

326
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,680
schooling is the students at the
heart of is, are, are the heart

327
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,640
of everything that we do.
So we have to think going back

328
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,160
to this idea of misstep or, or
mistake is how does it impact

329
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,240
the students or did it impact
the students?

330
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,840
You know, sometimes if it's,
it's, it's a, you know,

331
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,920
something which is internal
politics and people bickering

332
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,320
among each other or feel that
they're not hurt, You have to

333
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,920
really say, did it impact the
students and, and in what way?

334
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,720
And, and if it did, then that
for me would be a major, a major

335
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,560
mistake.
And, and, and I think, you know,

336
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,600
leading with the student in
mind, everything that is

337
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,280
happening in the school should
impact the students positively

338
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,200
towards their, their, their and,
and we always have to focus on

339
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,200
that.
And that's where for me, egos

340
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,840
should be left at the door.
And yeah, that's the heart.

341
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,920
The students are at the heart of
all that we do.

342
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,120
And look, perhaps you've just
answered this question, but I'm

343
00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:51,680
going to ask it anyway.
What advice would you give to

344
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,440
aspiring school leaders who want
to build this kind of inclusive

345
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,280
and and culturally responsive
environment?

346
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,360
So, okay, that was the first
one.

347
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:04,800
I mean, students every decision.
And it got to the point where

348
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,000
where my assistant principal,
she would walk in and she'd say,

349
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,960
I know you put the, the
students, you know the students

350
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,560
are, but it it really.
Is, is true because any

351
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,280
professional development that we
do as a teacher or as a leader,

352
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,360
we're trying to improve these
best practices.

353
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:26,920
Any new research that comes into
the school, it's to make not

354
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,840
only the teaching and learning,
but but but the whole ecosystem

355
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,480
of the school better.
But I mean, some little pieces

356
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,200
of advice is document everything
you do, all right, whether

357
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,360
you're a teacher leader, whether
you're you're a middle leader,

358
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:45,040
whether you're a principal and
document it not as, oh, I want

359
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,720
to protect my back or I need to,
you know, take this, this she

360
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,080
said this, document it as if it
was part of the bigger strategic

361
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,640
plan of the school, because that
becomes where do you fit in as

362
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,360
an individual in the whole
school system?

363
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,720
And, and if you can imagine that
every, every professional

364
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,080
development that you do, every
conference that you go to, every

365
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,760
conversation that you have.
And we have a lot of interesting

366
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,200
conversations in schools.
A lot of them write them down in

367
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,680
a little diary, document them
and then take moments to reflect

368
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:24,080
where, where does this fit in
terms of where the school is

369
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,880
going, the vision of the school,
the values of the school, the

370
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,560
mission of the school.
And if you start to find out

371
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:35,160
that actually a lot of what
you're doing doesn't really fit

372
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,240
into that school, then maybe
that's a wake up call that it's

373
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,480
not that you're doing something
wrong or the school is doing

374
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,440
something wrong, but maybe you
don't really belong there,

375
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,240
right?
And I say that to my education

376
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,600
students at the university
because they come and they said

377
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,640
to me, oh, you're teaching us
interdisciplinary, you're

378
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,400
teaching us how to do projects.
You we're going to go into the

379
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:56,600
schools And they don't want
that.

380
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,120
So I say to them, what do you
want to be in a school that

381
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:01,720
doesn't want that?
And then they look at me like,

382
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,680
but then of course, it's a job
and we all need jobs.

383
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,440
And so the decisions we make,
but I think that kind of

384
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,520
documentation really helps with
with with reflection.

385
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,000
And that goes on to the second
piece of advice is don't wait

386
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,840
for a title to be a leader.
Because what happens in schools

387
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,400
with all of this PD is that we
all think, OK, we're, we're

388
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,960
doing the PD in order that we
can get a promotion, which is

389
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:27,760
great.
We love it.

390
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,920
We all want to be that kind of
leader, but they're all, they're

391
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,480
finite number of their spots in
terms of that leadership.

392
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,080
So how do you define yourself as
a leader and where do you want

393
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,680
to go with all the energy that
you have?

394
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,320
And so don't think of the title,
think of you yourself, of where

395
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,040
you you want to go.
And so that's, and then the

396
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,600
third is, is a bit touchy, but
I've been thinking a lot about

397
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,520
it.
And that's part of why I've

398
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,880
opened this consultancy is that
you see a lot of brilliant,

399
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,320
brilliant leaders in school, you
know, teacher leaders, admin

400
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,640
leaders, and then they start to
reach retirement and they're

401
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,520
still young and energetic and
they, and they, and, and, you

402
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,200
know, and, and then suddenly
retirement comes and they're

403
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,600
like, OK, so plan your exit.
And there could be many ways to

404
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,240
plan.
The exit for me is the research

405
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,120
is the kind of exit where I want
to go.

406
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:27,240
And I'm lucky that I have it,
but I would really want to work

407
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:32,560
with with those kinds of leaders
who really have all that energy.

408
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,440
And then, but it could be also
for International School

409
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,480
principals, always plan your
exit and give yourself enough

410
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,320
time to reshape your your career
identity or even your whole

411
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,360
identity just to try to see
where you're going to go next.

412
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,640
That's really wonderful advice
and it's not often a focus, is

413
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,360
it?
A lot of people are focused on

414
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,560
the entry points.
How do I get a promotion?

415
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,440
How do I apply?
What does this look like?

416
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,000
What training or skills do I
need?

417
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,200
And you know, rarely is the
conversation about the, the tail

418
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,120
end of that and, you know,
transitions into, you know,

419
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,240
other areas.
So that's really wonderful

420
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,960
advice.
So as we look to the future a

421
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,440
little bit, what emerging trends
in education, whether research

422
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,440
trends or otherwise, do you see
that excite you and and what

423
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,680
keeps you up at night perhaps?
So I don't know if I've

424
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,680
mentioned, but I'm, I'm a mom,
right?

425
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,160
I have 3 kids.
I have a daughter at 23 and

426
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,160
another daughter 21 and my son
is 14.

427
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,480
And we have long conversations
as a family, you know, we sit

428
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,840
down and so it's not just as an
educator, but there are some

429
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,280
concerns, but I like to listen
to them, you know, about

430
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,040
especially AI.
And, and so I have my daughter's

431
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,280
really refused to use AI.
They say, mom, it kind of like

432
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,080
it makes your brain lazy and
that's interesting.

433
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:59,520
That and the other thing they
say it ruins your creativity

434
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,920
and, and it just kind of ruined
and it makes you want 1.

435
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,400
You lose your voice basically is
what they're saying.

436
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,480
And then I have my son who of
course dabbles with AI.

437
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,280
So I think that what concerns me
is concerning everyone really

438
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:20,800
human agency in the age of AI
and generational agency, because

439
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,840
I think we, the older generation
who use AI, we can say, OK, but

440
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,920
we controlled it.
We, we control the prompts, we

441
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,720
tweak it, we tweak it.
And I can imagine I, you can say

442
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,320
that it does help me with when I
really want to critically go

443
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,040
into something and I keep on
tweaking using things for AI,

444
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,400
but it doesn't help me with my
creativity.

445
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,560
In fact, it does stifle my
creativity.

446
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,720
So in terms of education, I
think we, we, we cannot go into

447
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,680
AI lightly.
We have to work through.

448
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,080
But I, I think the core for that
is student agency, learner

449
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,680
agency in the classroom, because
you know, when you just say, OK,

450
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,320
voice and choice, fine.
But, but in terms of decision

451
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,160
making and then going back to,
to the word mistakes, is that

452
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,720
does AI allow us to make
multiple mistakes and go back

453
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,360
and fix those mistakes?
Because that's where we know

454
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:22,720
learning happens and we we gain
our agents agency or our self

455
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,320
autonomy and independent
learning by, by making those

456
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,480
mistakes.
So in traditional, we wouldn't

457
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,800
have that conversation we were
having 20 years ago just about

458
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,960
student agency.
We wanted to create a class

459
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,600
where students were had agency,
right?

460
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,200
Because we wanted that to
happen.

461
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,280
We wanted them to make the
mistakes in a safe environment

462
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,080
where they could keep on getting
better and learning from their

463
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,840
mistakes because that is what we
wanted from them, right?

464
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:54,760
And then so now AI has come in
and and that takes away agency

465
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,080
in terms of it doesn't allow us
to make our mistakes.

466
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,640
So where are we going to go as
educators here and balancing

467
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,720
time factors because we know
that the curriculum is getting

468
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,800
bigger and bigger.
There's a lot more the kids have

469
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,360
to learn.
And so we want to push

470
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,880
especially more traditional kind
of, I'm losing my words in terms

471
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,480
of, you know, when, when, when
we're teaching for the test or

472
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,320
when they're, they have exams.
We have, we have to cover a

473
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,400
certain amount of material.
So it's going to be something

474
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,600
that we grapple with.
Yeah.

475
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,520
And and I love how you framed
around student agency because

476
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,800
and showing kids that they do
have some agency.

477
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,640
If we take in relation to AI,
it's not they're not a sort of a

478
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,200
passive passenger in that they
do have agency.

479
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,280
It's not necessarily it doesn't
have to be something that just

480
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,360
happens to them without any
control.

481
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:51,600
They have a say in that and
helping them to to understand

482
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,280
and to show them what you know,
what control they can take in a

483
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,800
part of shaping that for the
future, I think is a really

484
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,760
interesting question to think
about.

485
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,280
Or they can show us.
They can show us.

486
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,640
That's much more likely.
I agree with you on that one.

487
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,920
How about a couple of quick
questions to wrap things up?

488
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,960
What is one key leadership habit
or mindset that you believe

489
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,360
makes the greatest impact?
A reflection, I mean.

490
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:22,000
Yeah, a reflection based on
reading and research.

491
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,080
Your favorite book on leadership
or life?

492
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:30,640
So Steve Bartlett has a podcast
series and I don't know if

493
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,920
you've heard of him, A Diary of
the Ceoi just like him because

494
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,720
he's he's very warm and he's
funny and he's charismatic and

495
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,560
he has good advice.
I like I do follow him.

496
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,920
Yeah, he's and he's what I love
about him.

497
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,000
He's just so calm and patient
and composed.

498
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,160
I'm not sure how he he manages
that, but he does.

499
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,680
Yeah, yeah, but he's quick too
and he calls, he calls you out

500
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:01,520
and and he picks interesting
people to to interview.

501
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,960
Yeah, yeah, I like.
And quite often I find myself

502
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,960
thinking when I listen to him,
you know, these are the

503
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,920
questions I want to know, like
he's asking the questions that

504
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,280
I'm interested in hearing from
his guests.

505
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,800
So I I find that interesting.
One thing you do daily that

506
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,480
helps you to lead better.
I really, I talk to my family

507
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,560
and I have some really great
mentors and especially as you,

508
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,840
you have high, highly demanding
positions, you need to have

509
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,360
mentors, people who can call you
out, who you trust, who you know

510
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,120
will give you the best advice.
It's it's really necessary.

511
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,720
A leader, past or present, that
you admire.

512
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,120
My husband, he's, he's one of
the leaders, humanitarian

513
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,760
leaders in the World Food
Program.

514
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,720
He's been through all crises.
And yeah, I just, I admire him.

515
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,720
I support him all the way.
And finally, the best advice

516
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,640
you've ever received.
Well I would want to say this

517
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,600
too shall pass because sometimes
you you need to know that that

518
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,240
it will pass.
Well, I, I think that's a great

519
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,880
note to wrap things up.
So thank you so much, Megan, for

520
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,040
joining me today.
It's been a pleasure chatting

521
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,360
with you.
One more thing I want to add,

522
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,280
please, because I was waiting
for you to ask me what, what is

523
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,960
the song?
The song that my leadership and

524
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,240
I, it's 100% it's Billy Joel.
We didn't start the fire because

525
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,080
it's all about history and and
passing down responsibility, but

526
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,800
also taking responsibility.
And my kids and I blasted in the

527
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,640
car and we sing it.
So it's a great stress relief,

528
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,280
but it's a really great lesson
in in leadership.

529
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,000
Yeah, it's a it's a wonderful
song, isn't it?

530
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,800
And I'm not sure if you've heard
just on that note, there's, I

531
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,920
don't know if you're aware of
the band Fall Out Boy.

532
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,400
So they've updated that and
there's like a new version with

533
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,840
new lyrics for the, you know,
kind of 1st century references

534
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,040
in there to interesting take on
it.

535
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,600
It's great, it's great.
And in both versions Lebanon is

536
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,480
mentioned and I don't know if
that's good or bad, but it's

537
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,040
true for.
That what do they say?

538
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:15,920
All publicity is good
publicities.

539
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,960
Yeah, yeah.
Well, look, thanks so much

540
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,160
Megan.
I really appreciate your time

541
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,680
today and it's been wonderful
chatting with you.

542
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,200
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure.

543
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,440
I've had fun and and it was a
great conversation and thank

544
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,040
you.
Thanks so much for listening to

545
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,600
the episode.
If you enjoyed this

546
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,320
conversation, don't forget to
subscribe, like, follow, etc.

547
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,600
Drop a comment below to let me
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548
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,480
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549
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,400
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