Dr. Sudha Govindswamy

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Welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

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I'm delighted to welcome my
special guest today, Doctor

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Sudha Govan Swami.
Sudha is one of four Associate

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Directors in school Support and
evaluation at the Council of

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International Schools.
Sudha overseas schools and

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support schools regionally in
Middle East, Africa and India.

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She's a strong believer in
school improvement through

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internationally benchmarks.
Suda served as ACIS Affiliate

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Consultant since 2015 and in
this capacity she supported

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school improvement initiatives
in international schools across

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10 countries including the UAE,
Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan,

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Bangkok, India, Egypt and the
US.

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In 2018, Suda joined CIS as a
full time School Support and

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Evaluation Officer and in this
period continued to expand her

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work in supporting schools in
East and West Africa as well,

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and then in 2021 took on the
role of Associate Director.

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Welcome, Sudha.
Thank you.

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Thank you very much, Kevin.
Thank you for having me on the

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Leadership Podcast.
I really appreciate this

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opportunity.
It's great to have you here and

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I'm looking forward to our
conversation today.

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So you shared with me earlier
that you ran away from home when

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you were nine years old, but it
was it was relatively short

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lived.
What were you?

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What was going on?
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't

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it?
As a child, you begin to show

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what your some of the traits of
what your adult life will look

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like.
But thankfully, I haven't run

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away from home ever since I
became an adult.

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But as a child, it was just, I
always felt, you know, one

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could, one could make a
difference if you tried and

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sometimes very poorly, but at
least you knew you had the

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agency to try.
And this was my nine year old

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self telling myself, I'm going
to go out there, make a really

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big come back and make my family
so proud that there will be no

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more problems at home.
And I recall this.

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We lived in a colony of, you
know, houses in Rose.

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And at the end of where our Rd.
led to, there was this lower

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primary school in the colony.
I didn't go to that school, but

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this school was a very prominent
feature of the colony.

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So I said, I'm going to run away
from home.

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I'm going to really make it big.
I put on a few things in my bag

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and I left and I reached until
that school, I saw children

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playing, I saw their parents
coming to pick them up and I saw

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a lot of fun.
And I said I'd lingered around

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there for quite some time and I
said, you know what, maybe I'll

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go back later.
And so it lasted about 3 hours.

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So I really think, you know, but
it just makes me reflect and

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think that was something quite
adventurous those days to think

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about it when I was just lying
and in the culture that I grew

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up in particular, so.
Very good.

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That's good.
So if your leadership style was

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a song, song or a movie, what
would it be?

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And Wire.
You know, I've always kind of

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sung this along.
Of course, I'm an 80s kid in in

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the sense that that's when my
college years where and I really

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like the song Don't Stop
Believing by the rock band

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Journey.
I don't know if our younger

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counterparts would would recall
it.

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It just speaks to me at various
levels.

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It's about a small town girl,
you know, going into the city,

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looking around and the idea that
don't stop believing in what

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your dreams are for yourself and
for the community that you

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belong to.
And so that's a very special

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song for me, not only in terms
of my leadership approach, but

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in life itself.
So yeah.

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Well, continuing on from there
and to talk I guess a little bit

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more about your leadership
journey.

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So what inspired you to embark
on this world of international

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education and and supporting
working alongside schools around

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the world?
Yeah.

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And and that's such a great
question, Kevin, because, you

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know, I wasn't intending to be
in, I never started my journey

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thinking this is where I want to
be.

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And I've kind of dabbled around
in different fields throughout

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my journey.
I started off in marketing and

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finance, business
administration, then went on to

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information technology because
in the late 80s, nineties,

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that's what everyone said has a
future and kind of dabbled

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thinks, you know, listening to
what would really work, formulas

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of what would work, which was
the way my culture always

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approached success in life until
eventually I reached at a point

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when I said that is it that I
really enjoy doing and want to

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be doing.
And through these multiple

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points, I realized what I really
enjoy is empowering and being

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with people.
And it's interesting because I'm

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not generally an extrovert, but
when I've seen the power or or

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the spark in the eyes of people
when you've really empowered

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them to be their own learning
agents, it really brought me a

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lot of joy.
And I think that's where I

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began, began to kind of hone
into the opportunity of working

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with people.
Education and international

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education was again, by by not
by design, but by default

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because I was a trailing spouse
back in the 90s, I followed

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followed my husband to the
Middle East.

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And what would one do the 90s?
When you are around here, you

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have a lot of time.
Well, I can become an educator

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in a school for a short while
and let me give that a try.

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And that's how it began.
But it's fascinating that the my

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first entry into the world of
education with my grade two

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students back in the day who now
write to me and say, Miss

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Sunder, I wish my child got a
got a teacher like you.

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And I'm thinking, wow, when did
I become that old?

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But you know, it's just an
opportunity again to be amongst

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children, be amongst people who
think alike and the fact that we

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have the agency to empower
others really made a difference

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for me.
So that was my journey, Kevin.

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It wasn't intended, chalked out
and I didn't have a plan.

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But once I arrived, I knew this
is where I belong.

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I knew this is where I wanted to
spend the rest of my life,

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empowering, supporting, but also
being a part of that learning

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myself.
Because that is the beauty of

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being in education, the fact
that journey of learning never

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stops.
And we mentioned before in terms

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of learning never stops, you've
mentioned before, you know, the

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range of different countries and
regions and continents that

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you've worked across all kinds
of different cultures and, and

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languages.
What's been some of your your

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biggest learning or aha moments
in your your interactions around

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the world?
Yeah, You know, it's fascinating

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because when I started off in
the journey, initially, my aha

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moments were always related to
tangible aspects like, you know,

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the curriculum or frameworks or
going deeper into a particular

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approach in pedagogy or
leadership development.

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It took me about 10 years to
realize the true meaning of

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international education and
engaging with cultures lies in

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realizing that sense of
belonging and that true sense of

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identity for our constituents is
what is where the real meaning

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of international education lies.
And if we've missed that, we

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kind of clearly are not meeting
where we really need to go in

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terms of the depth of having
this opportunity to engage with

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different cultures in different
regions across the world.

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So for me, it was again, a very
long journey that started off

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very much at the surface level.
And then the more I engaged with

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people across different
cultures, the more I got the

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opportunity to reflect on where
I was clearly off the mark.

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I just feel that whole notion of
sense of belonging and identity

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is where it is made a clear more
difference for me in my journey.

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Kevin.
And it's it's funny to hear how

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common those thoughts are
amongst people who are

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experienced in working across
international education and

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across different cultures and
countries.

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And, you know, you often hear as
well that the more people engage

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in different cultures and work
around different places and with

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different people, the more
curious they become and the more

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they realize how little, you
know, we actually know as the

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more that you find out about,
you know, the world around us.

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Absolutely.
Education is indeed a

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progressive discovery of your
ignorance and how little we

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actually knew, right?
And I think that's what makes

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the journey so fascinating
because there's never a moment

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where I'm not feeling humbled by
just this opportunity to engage

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with such wonderful minds and
talk leaders and educators who

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really feel we are more
continuously learning, but in

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that process of learning and
learning, because learning

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always doesn't bring success.
There's always failure also as a

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part of learning.
But in that process, we are in

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this together.
And I think that's the power and

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the, and the minute we realize
that this is a community that

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really wants to make a
difference, regardless of our

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circle of influence or not,
that's where the true power

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lies.
So, yeah, absolutely.

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Thank you for capturing that so
articulately, Kevin.

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And if we talk a little bit
about some of the realities of

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leadership, what's 1 of the
toughest leadership challenges

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you've faced and how did you
navigate it?

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Yeah.
You know, this is an interesting

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question, right, Because the
tough, the toughest challenges

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are very contextual, they're
very situational.

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And then you look back sometimes
and then you have when you face

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newer challenges, you think, was
that really a challenge or was

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that a day-to-day issue so that
that you thought was a

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challenge, right.
But if I think about

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conceptually the whole notion of
being challenged in leadership,

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I would say it's often arising
from the fact that there has

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been misalignment of stakeholder
perspective.

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So for example, where the
board's way of looking at a

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particular issue is very
misaligned with what the

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leadership is looking at, or
where a parent's perspective on

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what a child's success should
look like is very misaligned

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with what the teacher feels it
should look like.

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So I think the largest of
challenges or the biggest of

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challenges have emerged from
that misalignment of stakeholder

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perspectives.
And I think how we've always

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navigated through that because
it's very complex, right?

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And the reason why that is
complex is because there we are

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kind of questioning and
challenging assumptions,

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behaviors, norms, cultures,
right?

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Because stakeholder perspectives
are informed by this.

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And I think how we've, I've
always navigated those very

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complex and nuanced situations
is by going back to our purpose,

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going back to our shared values
and to say, yes, we have

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different cultural perspectives
or the way we approach this, but

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being a part of this
organization, who we are and

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what defines our purpose.
And that takes kind of the

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personal, kind of it diffuses
that personal tension and allows

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us to realign with our purpose
and our values.

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And I think that's been again, a
very big learning for me, right?

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Because back in the day where I
would go into meetings thinking,

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how can I bring my knowledge to
the table to kind of resolve the

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situation to shifting gears to
save, How can we collectively

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revisit our purpose and our
shared values so that we

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approach the situation through
that perspective.

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And that's been a huge, I say
that in a few minutes, but

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that's been another journey of
almost a decade for me.

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But I think that's where the
power truly lies, as far as I

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have seen, in helping us kind of
resolve some of those deeply

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rooted cultural norms and
oftentimes biases that we don't

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even realize exist within us.
Values and bringing it back to

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shared values, because quite
often when there is that

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misalignment that you talk about
or a disagreement or a

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difference of opinion or
perspective, we want to focus on

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that difference and we want to
try and work that difference or

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solve the problem rather than
taking a few steps back and

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looking at all the things we
actually have in common.

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But these are all the things we
agree on.

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We agree depending on the
situation, we agree.

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We both want what's best for
your child or we want what is

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best for this school.
You know, plenty of things.

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We have an agreement, perhaps
how we get there is something we

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can work on together.
I love how you framed that.

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So is there a particular
leadership practice or habit or

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approach that has really changed
the game for you and, you know,

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helped you to have some of these
difficult or challenging

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conversations and interactions
perhaps?

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Yeah, I would say listening
before leading, listening to

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understand rather than listening
to respond.

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And again, from the culture that
I've come from where a leader is

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supposed to have all the right
answers, the shifting gears to

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say let's explore this together
and tell me more has been a huge

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learning curve for me, Kevin.
And I think that totally changed

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the game for me when I went into
situations ready to listen

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rather than to respond.
So if we sort of cast their mind

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forward now to the future of
education and and school

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leadership, how do you see
international education and

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leadership of international
schools evolving over the next 5

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to 10 years?
That's such a fascinating

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question, Kevin.
And I say that because if there

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is one thing that the pandemic
taught us, it is about what sort

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of approaches to leadership
clearly survive the unforeseen,

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volatile, completely
unpredictable nature of the

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education landscape that we are
in.

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And I think what I've learned
from those experiences and

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engaging with school leaders at
that period of time is that

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leadership should focus more on
building empowered communities,

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building self sustainable
communities of practice rather

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than the notion of leading from
the front.

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And we've seen organizations
emerge more effectively from the

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pandemic when they already had
that sort of an approach deeply

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embedded in their value system
versus where one would always

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look to a core group of people
or a leader for all the answers.

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So I would say the future of
leadership is about empowering,

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building empowered and sustained
communities and adding value to

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individuals in that way.
If you could change one thing

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about international education
and and leadership of it is

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stewardship of international
schools, what would it be?

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If you had a magic wand, what
would it?

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What would it look like?
What would you pick?

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Yeah, I just wish, you know, my,
my magic wand or probably I

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actually don't need a magic wand
because what I think is, and I'm

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a very probably realize this in
my conversations, I'm quite

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practical when it comes to when
we have to get into action.

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And I think in my magic wand of
leadership, if I were to go

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back, what I would do more of
would be to invite more

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open-ended innovative dialogue
versus looking for the right

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answers.
So I think there is a lot of

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power in that and being open to
different perspectives in a

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genuine way and and the approach
to understand versus again to

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respond.
So that would be my my biggest

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take away for leaders in the
future as well.

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So you know, an example, I was
in the school a week ago and

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they invite what they call an
innovation tournament where they

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choose.
So it's not like an open

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suggestion box, but rather a
particular focus area where

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community members can actually
voice their ideas of

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innovatively problem solving.
And I think there's a lot of

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potential in that.
And I go back to the thread of

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community again empowered
community in this approach as

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well.
Yeah, fantastic.

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It's kind of the approach of
crowdsourcing problems and

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innovation and solutions.
Absolutely.

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A couple of quick questions to
wrap things up.

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What's your favorite book on
leadership or life or anything

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really?
Yeah, like you and like many of

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us, you know, I've had many
favorite books over time.

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But I think one of the books I
keep reading and revisiting,

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it's by Robin Sharma.
It's called The Leader Who Had

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No title.
And it holds a lot of power in

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my thinking only because it's
not.

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It doesn't sync leadership to a
title or to a position, but

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00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:12,119
rather the opportunity to serve,
and I think that's one of my all

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00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,800
time favorite books.
And I think we that kind of

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notion we see in schools all the
time when we go and visit them,

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the those people without
necessarily a title who are very

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clearly in leadership roles in
the school, whether that be as a

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00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,920
teacher or an educational
assistant, doing just really

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00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:34,400
wonderful things, leading by
example without any authority or

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anything else as it were, but
just getting on with it and

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doing amazing things.
That's basically in my the story

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of my life in a nutshell, Kevin.
You know, I've never waited for

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a title or if I saw something
that could be done and that I

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00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,440
could be part of, I've always
volunteered.

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00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,760
It's not always brought great
results.

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It's also led to some
misunderstandings.

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But you know, the idea that if
there is something we can do,

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let's do this.
We don't have to wait for

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something to be, you know, by a
title or by a by a name.

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If we can make a change, why not
do it today?

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So that's always been my
approach and I've been humbled

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00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,120
by the trust that I've received
over the years in my

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00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,760
engagements.
What's one thing that you do

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00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,080
daily that helps you to lead
better?

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00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,000
I would say as I've gotten
older, I would say word choice.

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00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,320
I'm extremely mindful of my word
choice because I've realized

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00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,920
words have power.
A leader, past or present, that

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00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,360
you admire all.
Leader is very tough, you know,

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00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,640
for the number of years that
I've been in this.

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And so I'll quickly share three
talk 3 of my top gurus that I

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00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,800
actually go back to every single
day.

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So I would say I'm not in any
particular order, but definitely

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Doctor Lynn Erickson, who's of
course globally renowned for the

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00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,320
fantastic work she's done on
teaching for conceptual

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00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,000
understanding.
But for me, she's been a great

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00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,400
role model in terms of modelling
vulnerability in leadership,

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00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,040
particularly as a woman, what
you go through and juggling your

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00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,200
priorities as a family and what
you need to accomplish.

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00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,840
The other person that I always
think about and sometimes truly

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00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,560
kind of engage in deeper
conversations, Doctor Mary

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00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,440
Hayden, who was also my
dissertation supervisor at the

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University of Bath.
And Doctor Hayden taught me what

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00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,240
it means to have a keen eye for
what essentially matters.

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00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,920
So how do you kind of remove the
noise and kind of bring to the

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00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,560
top what essentially matters?
And last and definitely not the

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00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,800
least, Kevin Simpson, who
continues to be a good friend

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00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,640
and a mentor.
And I think about Kevin, if I

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00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,520
think if leadership had a
fearless face, that's Kevin

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00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,920
Simpson for you.
So yeah, these are my always go

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00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,400
to gurus, have been and will
always be.

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00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,480
And finally, the best advice
you've ever received.

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00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,880
Best advice?
I'll talk about something that

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00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,760
happened very recently this week
and the advice I received.

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00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,800
You cannot pull from an empty
cup.

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00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,320
And I think that goes out to all
the leaders out there.

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00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,400
Leadership is complex.
It's very draining

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00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,400
psychologically, emotionally,
physically, socially.

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00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,480
So someone sent me a message
saying Suda, take care of

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00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,160
yourself.
And that's that's what I want to

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00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,720
showcase to the world as well.
Well, that sounds like a a great

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00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,200
piece of advice and a great
thought to leave things on.

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00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,520
So thank you so much for for
joining me today, Suda.

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I've really enjoyed our
conversation and all the best.

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00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,320
Thank you so much.
Thank you very much, Kevin.

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00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,840
Thank you for having me.
Thanks so much for listening to

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00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:34,400
the episode.
If you enjoyed this

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00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,160
conversation, don't forget to
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00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,400
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357
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,360
in upcoming episodes or
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358
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