Kelly Smith

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Welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

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I'm delighted to welcome my
guest today, Kelly Smith.

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Kelly is obsessed with learning.
He started a micro school around

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his kitchen table in 2018 and
since then has helped thousands

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of people start their own micro
schools as founder and CEO of

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Prenda.
Before Prenda, Kelly ran a

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volunteer coding program at
public libraries, built and sold

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a small software business,
worked in engineering and

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marketing roles at various
technology companies, and earned

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a master's degree in nuclear
fusion from MIT.

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And Kelly lives in Arizona with
his wife and four children.

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Welcome, Kelly.
Thanks, Kevin.

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It's good to be here.
Yeah, great to have you here.

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So look, you described yourself
in that that bio as being

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obsessed with learning.
So when did that obsession first

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sort of bubble to the surface?
And when, when do you, when did

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you realize it was more than
just kind of personal curiosity?

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Yeah, it's an interesting
question because my story, like

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many was, was a sort of natural
interest that was gradually

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dimmed by formal education.
So by the time I graduated high

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school, I thought about school
as, you know, a series of hoops

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to jump through and tasks to
complete and behavior standards

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to meet.
But as I look back on the story,

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outside of school, I was
constantly learning.

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I mean, I did.
I remember running little

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experiments with, you know,
rolling balls around and asking

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my dad about the behavior of,
you know, mechanical objects,

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you know, as a pretty young kid.
And he's explaining to me that

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there's this thing called
physics.

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And I, you know, I said, when
can I learn this?

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Like, when is physics?
And he said, I don't think they

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teach, it's all college.
I mean, I was lucky enough to

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get a physics class in high
school, but, you know, I was

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interested.
I, I just wanted to know how the

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world works.
That included art, literature.

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I mean, my friends and I were
coming up with inventions and

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trying to sell them to our
parents.

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We were running little
businesses.

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We were making my my friend
Michael and I made a rap album.

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That's incredible as 10 year
olds, you know, just all kinds

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of things that we could do with
our emerging brains as we

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grappled with the world around
us.

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So it's learning as a way of
life and just excitement all

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around about what humans have
figured out and and what's out

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there to learn.
And so for those people that

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aren't aware or haven't heard
the term micro school before,

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how do you describe it to people
who aren't familiar with the

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concept?
Yeah, so picture a small group

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of kids meeting together in
person, typically mixed age, but

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maybe they they span a a range
of three or four grade levels.

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And these kids are learning in a
way that's very student

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centered.
So they're in charge of their

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learning, literally setting
goals, working at their own pace

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every day to achieve mastery of
core academic subjects, but then

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also working together as a group
to do creative projects, to do

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Socratic discussions, to do
hands on science experiments.

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And so, you know, in my first
micro school, there were seven

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kids.
One of them was my own son, and

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I was not a teacher, but a
guide.

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I was really there to
facilitate, mentor, coach and

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support this environment where
really it was all designed to

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light a fire for kids or help
them encounter the joy of actual

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learning.
So many people talk about kind

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of reimagining education and,
and but very few actually start

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something or do something about
it.

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So what kind of gave you that
confidence and impetus to act

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and get something happening when
others kind of hesitate or don't

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bother?
Yeah, I mean, I think naivete

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probably is the main reason for
this.

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Some people say entrepreneurship
is a disease more than anything,

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but I've just been that curious
learner that wants to get out

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and try to grapple with the
world around me.

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I had been involved in many of
those conversations.

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I tended to gravitate toward
educators.

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Some of my close friends were
involved in in traditional

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education in various forms.
And you know, I had kids.

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I was looking at it as a parent,
really watching my own kids

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experience the very same things
that I had experienced, you

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know, try to keep your head
down, stay out of trouble,

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submit the work, get the grade.
But it becomes pretty rote and

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lifeless exercise.
So watching all of that, I also

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had stumbled into it through
this coding program that I had

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started at the library.
So this was really not intended

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to be an education innovation.
All I thought was it's fun to

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code.
There are resources online that

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anybody can learn to code, but
most people don't look at it.

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So why don't we do a club
together at the Public Library

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and kids come and they they work
together in person, but a lot of

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it is online learning that they
could have done at home anyway.

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And we really stumbled into a, a
dynamic where kids were clearly

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at the center.
They were loving learning.

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I mean, they wanted to come,
they would come back, bring

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their friends, their parents
were, you know, reporting all

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kinds of interests and
engagement.

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Some of them used code club as a
way to convince their kids to do

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chores at home, because then
their reward was go down and,

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and learn really hard cognitive
stuff at the library.

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You know, it doesn't make sense,
but it was that it's, it's that

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aspect of human nature that
really does want to learn.

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And we had tapped into it.
We tapped into the social side,

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really stumbled into it.
I didn't see it when I first

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started.
It was just expediency, but I'm,

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I'm now building this contrast
in my brain.

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I'm seeing how learning could
look at the code club at the

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library and I'm seeing how
learning does look for, for

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millions and millions of kids
all around the world in

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traditional classrooms as a
result of just simply a

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structure that's, that's
outdated.

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And so, you know, putting all
that together, I, I thought,

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well, what if we tried school
different?

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What if we applied the
principals of the code club and

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did it in a in a way that hit
math and science and social

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studies and all the the core
subjects.

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But we put kids at the center
and we build an environment that

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is both personalized and social
that's all about helping kids

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set and achieve amazing
educational outcomes and to feel

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very supported and nurtured
along the way.

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And you know, I wouldn't have
used all of those words at the

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time, but I was crazy enough to
pull my kid out of school and my

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friends pulled their kids out
and we just gave it a try.

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Within one semester, it was
obvious that there was something

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here and it was really going to
work.

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And micro schools are sometimes
misunderstood as kind of a niche

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or alternative.
What's the what's the biggest

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misconception that you hear from
people when discussing micro

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schools and and what's the the
reality if that's the

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misconception?
Yeah, I think it's it depends on

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where where you're coming from
in these conversations.

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So very quickly I have to pick
up, you know, who is this person

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and what are their assumptions?
A micro school.

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And some people will say, well,
that's homeschool, right?

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That's that's basically unschool
or that's homeschool or, or it's

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it's loosey goosey or it's free
range or it's hippie or it's

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Waldorf or it's, you know, some
of these things that people know

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to be maybe they think of it as
alternative or weird or, or

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outside of the norm.
And it is definitely in the in

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the sense that this is an
environment that kids really

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like to be in.
You see very happy learners, you

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see safety and an engagement
that you typically don't see in

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traditional classrooms.
Yes.

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But I will say on the other side
of that, it's a group of people

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they're meeting together every
day We do meet.

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My first micro school was in a
home, but many of these micro

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schools have grown into
commercial spaces or they meet

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in a classroom at a church or
maybe even rent space back from

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a local school district.
So, you know, picture something

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that looks a little bit more
structured.

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And, and in terms of the model,
I mean, kids are learning to

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read.
They're actually learning to

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read at faster rates and more
effectively.

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They're learning math.
They're engaged in these things.

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We see kids moving multiple
grade levels in one year.

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So a lot of academic holes being
filled and kids working ahead.

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They're they're taking
initiative.

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You know, one of the things we
do that's maybe different than

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traditional models is we don't
tell kids, we don't assign

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homework or, or tell kids go
home and, you know, drill or do

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these things or do this busy
work.

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And what we see instead is we
give kids options and invite

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them to care.
And then they come up with

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projects that blow your mind and
they go home and work on it for

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hours and hours and hours just
out of intrinsic motivation and

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enthusiasm for learning.
So, you know, I think what you

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would see is, is kids who are
really engaged, they feel safe,

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they're willing to take some
risks.

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There's very much a spirit in a
micro school of just not having

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to be right all the time, right?
So it's OK to make a mistake.

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And you'll hear kids, you know,
actually applying the growth

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mindset in their day-to-day
learning activities, which, you

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know, I think everybody's
figured out that growth

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mindset's a good idea.
But in most cases it's just a

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poster on the wall.
It's it's hard to actually

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implement inside of the
structure that, you know, you

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frankly have to teach the
lesson, do the test and then

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move on.
Whether you got AD or an A, it

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doesn't really matter.
So, you know, being able to

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truly give kids the time and
space to master concepts and go

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back as many times as it takes.
That's just one example of, of

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learning in a, in a way that you
know, it's just, it feels

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intuitive.
It feels like obvious, the

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obvious thing, but frankly it's
it's just not how it works in in

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a majority, an overwhelming
majority of classrooms even

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today.
So from a from the perspective

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of the adults involved in a
micro school, are there any kind

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of non negotiable elements for a
successful micro school in terms

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of approaches of the adults in
that space?

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Yeah, I mean, I think the main
thing is you want to build an

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environment where kids feel they
feel safe to make those mistakes

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and take those risks, right?
What that requires is a

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one-on-one connection with an
adult who's invested in your

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life.
So, you know, I, I talked to

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friends who teach in, in
traditional like middle schools

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and they have seven class
periods and there's thirty kids

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in each class period.
So that's 210 individual faces

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that are coming through their
classroom every day.

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There's zero chance that you,
you know, understand anything

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about those kids.
They're learning their life,

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what's going on.
You know, you, you may know all

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of their names.
I think that would be impressive

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if you know all of their names.
And so I think in a micro

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school, think of 10 kids and,
and that's the micro part,

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right, Is it's a small group and
this one adult and you see each

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other every single day.
You, you form a alliance, you

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form a bond that really does
open up neurological and

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psychological possibilities for
learning that you just don't see

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in, in traditional models.
And what we're talking about

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here is, you know, I'm, I'm
noticing you're off today or

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you're less motivated than you
usually are.

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What's going on?
And, you know, the, the student

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and the guide are having these
discussions about the human side

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of this.
And then what that means is that

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the adult is able to invite
those kids in a wise and loving

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way to be the best version of
themselves.

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And you know, I, I joke that all
of the kids in my early micro

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schools would would have at
least one moment during the year

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where they would break down in
tears, Not because I'm terrible

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to them, but it was really them
facing the fear and the

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challenge of trying to be the
best version of themselves.

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And, you know, if you've done a,
a sport or something where a

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coach, you know, sees potential
in you and, and encourages you,

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that can be, it can be grueling,
it can be scary.

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It's all the emotions, but it's
actually humanity at its best.

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And it's what we want in
learning environments.

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But all of that is impossible.
I mean, it's, it's almost

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inconceivable to think about
that in a in a traditional

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environment where, you know, so
much of it is just around sort

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of maintaining order and getting
through the standards and, and

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doing the tests.
Yeah.

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I mean, a micro school really
opens up possibilities.

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And This is why not only parents
and community members have

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stepped up and said, we love
micro schools, but a lot of

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educators are coming and they're
saying, I want to do it that

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way.
It actually feels like a much

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better way to achieve what I
wanted to do from the very

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beginning when I got into
teaching.

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Yeah.
So when I follow on from that

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thread a little bit, you
mentioned that you've helped

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lots of people start their own
micro schools and people sort of

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getting on board with this.
What's the kind of?

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Hardest part about?
Scaling or spreading that you're

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talking about things that are
really relational and deep

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connection and those sorts of
things.

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What are some of the challenges
of scaling something of that

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nature?
Yeah.

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So this is, like many new ideas,
The by far the largest

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challenge, the largest block to
this is inertia.

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It's literally just doing what
we've always done and maybe not

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even knowing that there's
another way, that there's a

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possibility.
Even if you do know.

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And we get the, the privilege of
meeting a lot of people who

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encounter these ideas for the
first time.

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I'm always inspired because I
can see the wheels turning in

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their brain.
I can see them kind of fill up

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with this hope and this, you
know, this excitement around

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what could this look like?
What could I do as an adult in

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the lives of these young people?
And it's, it's inspiring to

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them.
You can actually feel the

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energy.
And then without fail, there's a

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fear or a doubt or a thought
that comes in, you know, how

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could I possibly what what gives
me the right?

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What would people think?
You know, how would I deal with

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all the logistics?
They think of it as this, this

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big thing that you have to do.
And the truth of it is, you

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know, Prenda exists to take
barriers down as far as we

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possibly can.
And so if you are the type of

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person who can sit face to face
with a young human, you can see

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humanity in them.
You can honor and respect that.

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You can treat them with dignity.
You've probably done it before

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and some in some context,
whether that's academic tutoring

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or maybe sports or music or you
know, community events,

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community participation.
If you, if you can do that, if

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you can be there with that human
being and extend a loving

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invitation for them to be the
best version of themselves

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possible and then hold them
accountable with kindness and

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and care for them.
I mean, we, we tell our guides

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you are, you are an agent for
this kids future self.

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So when you're sitting with this
kid, you're not there as their

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representative.
Now their, their current state

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00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,200
might think I just want ice
cream and video games all day

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long, but as a 30 year old, I'm
here representing the 30 year

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old version of you saying,
here's what I'm going to hold

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you to because I know what
you're capable of.

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And I see how how working hard
as a young person to develop

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learning habits is actually
going to lead to a life of

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meaning and contribution.
And you know, all the things

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that that are promised in
embedded in human potential.

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So yeah, being that is, is
really the limit.

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But I would argue that there are
a lot of people that could be

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that most of them talk
themselves out of it.

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And so we're constantly trying
to help them see that they're

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capable of making big
contributions.

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So what's, what's through that?
What through that whole process

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of, of scale and helping people
and, and help them with those

294
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,320
understandings.
What what surprised you the most

295
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,440
about that process over time?
You know, maybe one surprise is

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just the the width of this this
segment of the population.

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You know, I, I had seen parents
do this.

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In fact, when we first started,
I thought probably the people

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that do Prenda are going to be
either current homeschoolers or

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00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,440
they will have at least thought
about homeschooling.

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Because if you think about that,
those are people who have, you

302
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,920
know, they cared so much about a
child in their life that they

303
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,160
were willing to, you know, do
something out of the ordinary,

304
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,400
put a lot of work in, spend up,
spend money and time preparing

305
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,520
all of this.
You know, they homeschoolers by

306
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,360
and large, do it without help,
right?

307
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,400
They don't have a group like
Prenda that's making things easy

308
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,960
for them.
So, you know, I thought, wow,

309
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,520
we're going to basically look
for people like that.

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What surprised me is it's not
just those people, although it

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00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,200
certainly is those people.
But like I mentioned, it's

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00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,840
classroom teachers.
I was at an event in Arkansas

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meeting people talking to them
about about micro schools.

314
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:32,640
And there was a woman in the
back.

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00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,760
She looked kind of, she looked
very professional and kind of

316
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,880
skeptical, like she just had
this look on her face.

317
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,280
And I talked to her afterwards,
you know, a little bit with

318
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,480
trepidation, right?
I'm, I'm a little nervous about

319
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,480
this.
And it turns out she's the

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00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,480
assistant, you know,
Superintendent of a, of a school

321
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,240
district.
And I said, wow, you know, are

322
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,160
you here to like, I don't know,
criticize me or, or, or tell me

323
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,800
all the ways that I'm harming
the, the public system?

324
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,840
And, and she was like, no, I'm,
I'm considering how we can do

325
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,240
this either with my current
district or, or I'll leave and

326
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,440
go do this because she saw the
vision of, of what's possible

327
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,520
and, and how this can benefit
the lives of kids.

328
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,920
So I think those kinds of
surprises where I just see how

329
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,960
many folks really do get it.
They see the opportunity, not

330
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:21,599
just the problem.
I mean, a lot of people see the

331
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,720
problems in education, but what
we're talking about is the, you

332
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,680
know, a solution.
It's being part of the solution.

333
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:34,160
It's this invitation as a parent
or an educator to create what

334
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,240
you wish existed, right?
And that's, that's not always

335
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:38,920
possible in this world we live
in.

336
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,000
But in education, it is now
possible.

337
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,800
And it's, it's just thrilling to
be part of that.

338
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,960
So to follow on from that a
little bit, you know, micro

339
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,600
schools make up, you know, a
very, you know, tiny fraction of

340
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,160
maybe the overall education
landscape around the world that

341
00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,520
perhaps a bit of an outlier.
What do you feel is the the role

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00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,680
of micro schools and perhaps
influencing or, you know,

343
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,960
nudging, persuading, you know,
more mainstream schooling?

344
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,760
How can how can micro schools
and you know, Prender and others

345
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,880
you know have an impact there,
do you think?

346
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,400
Yeah, Yeah.
This is an interesting question.

347
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,960
It's a big vision question.
It's how does this all play out?

348
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,000
How does this evolve?
One of the things that what I

349
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:31,160
saw early on is that the actual
ideal is to incorporate the the

350
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,280
concepts, the innovations of
micro schooling, but do them on

351
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,240
campus.
School is many more things than

352
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,440
than just learning right?
School is is childcare, school

353
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:47,080
is extra supports school is a
Community School is a resource

354
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,360
for many.
There's food associated with it,

355
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,400
there's transportation.
So if you think about all of

356
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,040
those structures and in keeping
those all the same, but then

357
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,000
doing learning in a way that
that truly lights a fire for

358
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,320
kids and helps them, you know,
believe in themselves and be the

359
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,040
best version of themselves.
And is that possible?

360
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,880
My, my answer is still yes, But
I was confronted with a pretty

361
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,440
hard reality when I, I did some
early, I call it research, You

362
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,320
know, I, I walked into some
schools that, you know, where I

363
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,160
knew, I knew the administrators,
I knew school leaders, I knew

364
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,080
teachers and I sort of pitched
them on this, like what, what if

365
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,840
you did it this way?
And by that point I, I had some

366
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,840
conviction.
I had, I had been experimenting

367
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,120
with it and they just looked at
me like, I don't know why we

368
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:34,600
would do that.
Like we've got, we're, we're

369
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,600
struggling to run, you know,
this, this whole other thing.

370
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,920
It's hard with, you know,
innovations hard in any context,

371
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:46,560
but I think it's especially hard
when, you know, I think the the

372
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,840
public education system has gone
hundreds of years without really

373
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,680
having to think about, without
having to be forced, you know,

374
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,520
to, to care what parents want or
to be, you know, responding in

375
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,840
a, for example, in a business,
if you offer a restaurant and

376
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,000
nobody wants your food, then no
one comes to your business and

377
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,440
you go out of business.
But in.

378
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,920
You know, in education, you open
a school, you just have to

379
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,280
convince your regulators that
you're doing a good job.

380
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,720
And parents have no choice for
for at least a really long time,

381
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,200
there's no options.
So now we're entering a world

382
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,080
where that is changing, right?
Parents do have options.

383
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,640
Parents are coming in and
they're saying, hey, my kids

384
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,880
bored.
My kid is not learning at the

385
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,080
level that I want them to learn.
My kid hates school.

386
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:36,960
And you know, in the past, it
was kind of like, well, sorry,

387
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,840
like this is what it is.
And now, yeah, that's a

388
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,600
different conversation because
the parents can go, they can

389
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,920
choose a different school, they
can create a different a micro

390
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,760
school.
And so it does put some pressure

391
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,520
on on the whole system.
What I think that's going to do

392
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,360
is it's going to open up
conversations and we're already

393
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:59,240
seeing this forward-looking
school leaders, administrators,

394
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,920
lots of teachers where they
start to say, Hey, I actually

395
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,680
agree with, you know, some of
the methodology here, like

396
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,000
there's, there's literature
around project based learning,

397
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,640
there's literature around
inquiry that goes back a long

398
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,720
time.
Maria Montessori was right about

399
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,560
some things.
And how can we get more student

400
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,800
autonomy and and more nurturing
connection with the with the

401
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,400
adult.
So, you know, if if you start to

402
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,960
see that conversation shift,
then hopefully this the

403
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,720
structures will follow and the
schools will be able to apply

404
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,760
some of the concepts that, you
know, really have made micro

405
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,280
schools so successful.
And then it's the best of all

406
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,240
worlds because now you have, you
know, parents that don't have to

407
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,680
go, you know, out of their way
to find a different thing and

408
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,000
drive them somewhere.
There's many parents that that's

409
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,160
a big struggle.
And, you know, we can do it

410
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,400
right on campus and we can have
a micro school that that

411
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,960
empowers learners.
That's Prenda's mission is to

412
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,240
empower learners.
If we can have a micro school

413
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,280
that empowers learners without
having to give up, you know, the

414
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,560
the structures and supports of
traditional education.

415
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,480
So, yeah, I would expect to see
that.

416
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,960
I don't know the time frame or
exactly how that's going to go.

417
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,880
There's still, you know, general
kind of resistance to it.

418
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,080
There's a lot of apathy.
I think there's a lot of open

419
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,680
hostility even to to the micro
school movement.

420
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,320
And I think some of that's just
misunderstanding.

421
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,520
The goal is not to tear anything
down.

422
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,120
It's it's just to be there for
kids and open up possibilities

423
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:28,640
that haven't existed for them.
So for someone may be stuck

424
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,160
within a traditional system or
school that they want to change

425
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,400
a teacher and educator of some
sort, but they don't know where

426
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,720
to start.
What would be your advice in

427
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,520
terms of what are some first
steps within the place they are

428
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,040
to to move in this direction?
Yeah.

429
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,240
So if you're in the United
States, call me

430
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,760
prendaprenda.com, just you can
reach out and we'd love to work

431
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,400
with you.
Literally one of the first

432
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,840
things I'll say to somebody
that's an educator or school

433
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,000
leader is let's look at doing
this inside of your system,

434
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,920
right?
So you don't have to quit, you

435
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,920
don't have to upend your life,
you don't have to give up your,

436
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,320
you know, retirement benefits
and all that.

437
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,600
You could, you could potentially
do innovative schooling from

438
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,120
where you are.
Sometimes people will look at me

439
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,800
funny and they say, no, not at
my school.

440
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,840
Like that's not going to go over
well.

441
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,600
I know my, you know,
administration's not going to

442
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,960
like it or something, but I
actually encourage them to give

443
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,000
it a try.
I think there's a lot, there's a

444
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,160
lot more openness to new ideas
than there has been in the past.

445
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,000
And so it's, it's worth trying
bring up that conversation, Say,

446
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,440
hey, here's the podcast I
listened to Kevin was like

447
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,200
talking to this crazy guy about
micro schools.

448
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,520
I would love to, I would love to
do something like this.

449
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:43,880
You know, how could we take my
class of 25 and, and, you know,

450
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,520
make it into two micro schools
that aren't really running in a,

451
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,760
in a different way?
And, you know, I, I think if

452
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,280
that doesn't go well, you have
options.

453
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,400
There are there are increasingly
ways to do this and many parts

454
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,960
of the United States now there
are school choice funding

455
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,160
models.
Parents don't have to be

456
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,800
independently wealthy to, to
access these programs.

457
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,160
You can go apply for a
scholarship from the state and

458
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,400
often that scholarship is enough
to justify.

459
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,440
I mean, this isn't high end
money.

460
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,200
We're, we're working with half
or you know, 70% of what the,

461
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,360
the districts work with, but you
can still, you know, get

462
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:25,040
education done on a budget and,
and create the types of

463
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,800
environments that really just
open kids minds and, and help

464
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,120
prepare them for a life of,
yeah, meaning and purpose and

465
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:33,640
all the good things that we want
for our children.

466
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,280
And you talked about that, the
kids having a life of meaning

467
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,320
and purpose for a student in a
micro school.

468
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,960
Fast forward 10 or 15 years,
they're, you know, 222527 or

469
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,080
something.
What do you hope they would say

470
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,320
in reflection of their micro
schooling experience?

471
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:58,480
If, you know, if everything went
well and they, you know, you

472
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,600
know you met your goals and
objective, what do you hope they

473
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,280
would say?
Yeah.

474
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,240
It's a, it's a great question in
in some ways I'm lucky because

475
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,720
my son that was in my first
micro school, he was in fifth

476
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,160
grade at the time and he is now
turning 19.

477
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,800
He's graduated from high school.
He's off on his own.

478
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,600
He's he's doing a religious
mission for two years.

479
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,680
And he's in the middle of this
experience really pulling from

480
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,240
some foundational stuff.
Now.

481
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,160
It's hard to separate out like
did he learn that from, you

482
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,320
know, informal coaching from his
parents or did he learn it from

483
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:35,000
the micro school?
But what you see in this kid

484
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,480
and, and really in, in lots of
others that I've seen is, is

485
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,960
really a, a willingness to take
ownership for your life.

486
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,360
So, you know, I, I think
inadvertently a system that's

487
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:50,320
that's kind of big and does, you
know, deals with large batches

488
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,520
of kids and sort of dictates
things at scale.

489
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,120
What that does is it takes away
the sense of agency and and

490
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,720
ownership.
It encourages kids to look at

491
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,600
themselves as kind of passive
recipients of this thing called

492
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,160
education.
And what you see in a kid who

493
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,520
comes out of a micro school and
and my son included, is a sense

494
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,480
of agency and ownership.
You know, it's this is my life.

495
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,400
This are these are the things
I'm interested in.

496
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,720
You still end up with classes
and he'll go to college and

497
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,520
have, you know, a course that
he's not thrilled about, but he

498
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,560
just has to do it because of the
the graduation requirements need

499
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,960
him to take this one course.
That's but that's OK.

500
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,400
You can still operate, operate
in that.

501
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,560
You can operate in that world in
a different way.

502
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,520
You can be still a high agency
person that takes ownership.

503
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,160
And this is what I love about
high agency.

504
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,040
And, and I get to meet a lot of
these people in my

505
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,000
entrepreneurial journey is high
agency people are the ones that

506
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,120
make the world right.
This is you.

507
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,400
You look around, Steve Jobs has
this famous quote where he said,

508
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,360
you look around at this world
that's been created by humans

509
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,560
and you think, oh, it just is
amazing.

510
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,280
But if you think about it,
everything there was created by

511
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,520
a person.
And it's not a like a different

512
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,920
species.
It's Someone Like You that

513
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,240
decided, you know, I want to do
this, I want to make this

514
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,480
contribution.
I want to figure this out.

515
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,640
I want to solve this problem.
And being that type of person

516
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,040
that sees it, wants it, and then
knows how to chase it and do it.

517
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,000
I think those things feel out of
bounds for far too many of our

518
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,440
kids where they're not really
able to, you know, take take

519
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,400
ownership and and dive in and do
those things.

520
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,640
So I would, you know, echo Steve
Jobs and say, I want every kid

521
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,800
to look at the world around
them, find ways in which they

522
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,520
think that world could be
different or better, and that

523
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,800
could be big or small.
It doesn't matter to me what it

524
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,440
is.
But then go about making those

525
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,120
changes that inevitably is going
to involve human learning.

526
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,200
So there's reading involved,
there's writing involved,

527
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,400
there's communicating with
others, there's asking good

528
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,280
questions, there's researching,
there's tinkering and trying and

529
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,600
iterating and all of these
things that go into really any

530
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,200
human endeavor that's that's
worth its salt.

531
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,200
So I would encourage that.
And thankfully that's what we're

532
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,520
seeing in kids that that get
into these micro school

533
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,040
environments because they're
able to feel more agency and

534
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,760
more ownership of their life.
A leader, past or present, you

535
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,480
admire.
George Washington, Cliche, but

536
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,840
man, that guy.
And finally, best piece of

537
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,920
advice you've ever received.
Best piece of advice and that's

538
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,440
I don't have one right off the
top of my head so I need to

539
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,080
think for just a second.
The thing that comes back to me

540
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,160
is, is about keeping options
open.

541
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:43,360
So I got to college and I really
wanted to, you know, I was

542
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,040
interested in everything.
For me, high school was a drag

543
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,160
and college was amazing because
all the sudden I had agency.

544
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,520
I was allowed to choose, you
know, courses that I wanted to

545
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,680
study and and I wanted to sign
up for all the majors.

546
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,880
I remember talking to my dad
like they they're going to make

547
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,040
me choose a major.
And he said we'll choose

548
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,560
something more technical because
it's a one way direction.

549
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,160
And so it really steered me into
kind of deep analytical work.

550
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,320
I got to work on lasers and
study physics and get go to MIT

551
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,760
and do all of this stuff that I
wouldn't have otherwise been

552
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,560
able to do.
But it wasn't my lifelong

553
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,200
passion or the only thing I
cared about.

554
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,800
And it actually set me up then
to still be able to come back

555
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,080
and do less technical work.
But yet, you know, it's still

556
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,000
equally difficult in the, and
maybe more so in the unlocking

557
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,080
of human minds and hearts that
that is education.

558
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,000
So grateful for that advice and
for the journey that I've been

559
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,840
on.
So that seems like a great place

560
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,560
to leave it.
So thank you so much for your

561
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,720
your time today, Kelly.
It's been wonderful chatting

562
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,000
with you and then the work
you're doing some, some really

563
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,240
great stuff there.
So thank you.

564
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,840
Thank you, it's been fun.
Thanks so much for listening to

565
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,400
the episode.
If you enjoyed this

566
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,720
conversation, don't forget to
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567
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,080
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568
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,200
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569
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,440
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570
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,200
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