Sean Bellamy

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So welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

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I'm excited to chat with my
guest today, Mr. Sean Bellamy.

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Welcome, Sean.
Hi, Kevin, good to good to be

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with you.
Yeah, thanks so much for joining

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me.
We're really looking forward to

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our chat today.
So I guess by normally I would

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introduce people in this
setting, but I wonder if you can

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take a bit of time to introduce
yourself.

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Tell us a bit about what you do
and and where you do it and and

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why you do it, because it's
fascinating.

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Yes.
So, so I'm either I've either

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found I've either found the
perfect job and spent a lifetime

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doing it, or spent most of my
life completely unemployable.

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It's really difficult to tell
sometimes. 39 years into Sam's

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school.
Yeah, 39 years.

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Like, I sat in the garden on the
announcement of the closure of a

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really incredible alternative
school called Dartington Hall,

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which if your listeners want to
find out about, has got the most

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intriguing past set up by
billionaires from America.

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Married a Yorkshire farmer and
they decided to develop an

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education in Utopia.
And I get, And this was back in

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1927 and I arrived as a
completely green, completely

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idealistic and probably at that
stage probably had done about a

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month teaching in my life.
I arrived at this school in 1985

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thinking this is going to be
just the most amazing start to

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my career.
And within 2 terms, its closure

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was announced because tragedies
occurred in financial

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mismanagement, as is often the
case with particularly private

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schools, and particularly those
that rely upon a particular

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population of people to join.
And this school was full of the

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children of poets and film
makers and bohemians.

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And it seemed to me incredibly
exciting, having been a

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Cambridge scholar, very excited
about looking at alternatives in

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the world, didn't really mind
where my career was going.

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This was just, this was just a
great opportunity.

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And suddenly the opportunity was
torn away.

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But as a 23 year old, I didn't
really empathize what it felt

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like initially to be a 13 year
old who'd been in that school

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since they were eight, boarding
and it was their home.

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And two teachers around me was
so traumatized by the closure.

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They said, at least what we've
got to do is gather these

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children and take them through
their education.

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So there was a sort of ethical,
moral component to this, that

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that schools should not be taken
away from children.

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It wasn't their fault.
And I was sort of seen as the

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battery pack, 2324 years old,
completely full of energy and

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mad ideas.
We all remember it.

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And they should have had me on
board as the person they could

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put the the starter leads to if
things were a problem.

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And I could do history and
sports and geography and all

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sorts of stuff.
So it seemed very exciting.

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So we sat in a garden with 14
young people and we designed a

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school.
And it might be the first time,

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it could be the first time in in
history.

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But a school has been designed
deliberately with children.

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Often schools are designed with
children in mind, which is very

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lovely because it's better than
designing schools with grades in

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mind or or sort of keeping
governors happy.

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This was definitely about
designing it with children when

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we spent a year.
And the reason it's called Sans

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S&S is because one of the
founding teachers used to write

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little secret letters to us
because the the school we were

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coming from wanted the school to
end and not resurface.

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They didn't want the phoenix
rising from the ashes.

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So we would have to do these
conversations a bit secretly.

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So he'd write to Sean and
Sabella, which became his wife,

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said, well, that's as good a
name as any for a school.

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So that definitely strokes the
ego, doesn't it?

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So the school is named after me
and another founder, Sean and

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Sabella, all very nice.
And I was at that stage in my

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life when definitely ego was
much more important than it is

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now.
And the children fundamental to

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what they said.
And it began with a really

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interesting comment I remember
from a 13 year old girl.

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She said, why aren't schools
based on common sense?

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She said because the schools,
the school, she'd come from

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another school before she came
to Dartington.

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She'd been there for a year and
Dartington seemed sensible.

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And she said, I'll give you an
example.

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It doesn't make any sense that
children wear a uniform when the

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staff don't.
Because if it's about pride of

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place, why aren't the staff
proud?

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If it's about connection and
community, why don't we all wear

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it?
Why doesn't the head teacher

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model it by wearing the jacket,
the tie and the hot weather and

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the jumper and not take it off
when it's too hot to cope?

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All that.
And we began with this

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conversation around, OK, then
what else is common sense?

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And being on first name terms
for them was made common sense

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because they didn't think anyone
had the automatic right to

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superiority, that this was
something you definitely earned

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and you didn't need to earn it,
whether Mr. or Mr. title.

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So for me it was like ground
breaking and fascinating and I

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was often out of my depth
because I'd been conventionally

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educated at grammar school then
to Cambridge, hierarchy and

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status mattered, not exposing
your weaknesses.

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A teacher mattered because I
thought it was it would lose me

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authority.
I was really thrown in the deep

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end by the incredible wisdom of
these people.

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But what I was exposed to was
that there is wisdom in the

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minds of very, very young
children.

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And it was that wisdom combined
with our experience, which led

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to SANS beginning in 87.
And now 38 years later, I'm

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still there.
I do lots of other work, but I'm

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four days a week teacher, one
day a week nominal head, which

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is an intriguing thing when we
look at management, which I'm

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sure we're going to explore.
That's sort of where I found

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myself.
So that's probably a really sort

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of helpful introduction as to
where I find myself a lifetime

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on in the same school.
So for those people who might

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not be familiar, where about
geographically are you located

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and how many kids do you have at
the moment at the school?

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So we're in a place called
Devon, which is the southwest of

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England, and we're very close to
a beautiful wilderness called

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Dartmoor where you can find wild
ponies and otters in rivers.

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So 5 minutes from the school
which is in a rural town of

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about 10,000 people.
We have amazing wilderness and

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rivers and beaches, really
utterly beautiful.

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The town itself was a was a tin
mining town so it's got quite an

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industrial feel to it.
It's quite dark and gloomy and

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we have a huge truffle fronted
property with an acre of garden

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that bang in the middle of town
really.

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So the children can go out for
buying sandwiches and coffee and

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teenagers particularly to go off
and escape the building.

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And we have 75 children and it
that's about the size we we stay

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at.
The most we've been is 85.

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When we started, we were 21.
And it seems to us when we got

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all our adults together, a
community of about 100 to 120

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liberal teaching assistants and
things like this, this seems

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like the ideal community size.
And again, for anyone, you sort

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of shared a little bit about how
the school started.

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So for anyone who's not familiar
with it currently, how do you

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describe it to people in a
sentence or two when they say,

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what is this school?
What is it all about?

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Who you know, who are you as a
school community?

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How do you describe it to them
in simple terms?

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So I think the the phrase I tend
to use most is it's somewhere

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between a dysfunctional family
and a university.

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That would be the atmosphere.
So it's considers itself

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democratic.
But I think a better word would

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be a school that listens and
another word you would perhaps

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understand if you in the
educational pilots would be

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relational.
I think you'd recognize all

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those things, a relational
listening, democratic school.

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And we can go into what
democracy means in our

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particular context.
But I think the best is you walk

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in and you feel like you're
walking into a family setting, a

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huge community family. 11 year
olds are doing things that

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sometimes 17 year olds get to
do, and 17 year olds are hanging

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out with 12 year olds playing
frisbee.

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And the idea of that, you know,
the thing that you've got in

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common is your age. 11 year olds
should hang out. 11 year olds

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definitely doesn't exist at all.
So I want to go back to a, a

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moment you you shared before
sort of 40 years ago, it seemed

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like you had quite a traditional
schooling, grammar school,

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Cambridge, you said.
But then, So what drew you to

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something very different and on
a different track?

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So one of the things I was doing
at Cambridge, and if your

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readers know a little bit about
the Cambridge Boat Race, the

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Oxford in Cambridge Boat Race.
So I was a very committed role.

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I'd done trials for those boats,
wasn't good enough, but was very

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much a committed role.
And so when I chose to be, to

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train as a teacher, I found a
university that would do, would

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help me develop my, my, my rower
and I had an idea to be a sports

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teacher or a sports coach.
And tragically, my, my sports,

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my, my rowing coach died the
year I arrived and I was sort of

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thrown into a spin because now I
didn't know what I was doing.

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I was training to be a history
teacher, but that was a sort of

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pretense really what I was, was
hoping to be a sports coach, go

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to a top event, go and do maybe
a PhD in sport and then finish

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up there.
So I changed my direction, did

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lots of rock climbing, canoeing,
sailing, things like this

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alongside pretending to be a
history teacher and couldn't

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find a job because I wasn't
really interested in being a

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teacher, although I find myself
now in the lifetime in teaching.

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But my history coach, my history
tutor said I think I found a job

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that will fit you.
And he sent me the application

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for Dartington Hall School.
And then I finished up turning

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up mainly through laziness,
because I hadn't obviously

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chosen to apply for 100 jobs
like young teachers do.

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I, I was just waiting for some
magic to happen.

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And the magic was my history
tutor finding a school that he

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thought might match my
personality.

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And I realized, and I wrote, I
wrote a poem when I was 17,

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which was very mocking of exams.
And I was, and I was actually

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suspended from my school, my
grammar school, because this bit

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of my rebellious nature was
beginning to surface.

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I got into much more trouble at
17 than I did at 13 and I found

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Cambridge.
I felt like a tourist the whole

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time.
And really I haven't found my

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tribe.
And I think what I've done at

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Sam's, thanks to this history
shooter who guided me towards

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Dartington, I've actually both
found and made my troll.

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I've found a place that
resonates with both my activism,

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my anti authority.
There's a sort of zeitgeist that

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I have around this.
So I think of sort of aligned

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those things to a lifetime and
created a school where the arts

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and politics matter and
conversation matters.

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And children are encouraged to
sort of find their both their

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rebellious and their free spirit
and not just rebellion in one of

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those which just sort of for the
sake of it, where they can find

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a way to express what matters.
And I think I felt I'd been

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denied it quite a lot of money.
So going on with that then, so

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when people hear kind of about
or the concept of a democratic

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school or things of that nature
where things are a lot, a lot

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more self-directed by the
students themselves, they

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sometimes imagine something
that's very loose or

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unstructured and informal.
How?

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How do you guys define it in
practice?

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So one of the first things that
adults assume when they come

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through the door and they hear
that there's this thing called

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choice, and they find that some
of them terrifying.

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The idea that children should be
able to choose what they study

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because their first reaction if
they've had a bad experience at

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school is I would choose to do
nothing.

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If you gave me the choice of the
13 or I would avoid all those

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things that I hated, which was
the everything that Pink Floyd

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talked about in, you know, the
sarcasm in the classroom and all

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that.
Yeah.

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So another brick in the wall.
If that was the experience

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they're going to project onto
their children that what they

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will probably do is nothing.
And it is true that there is

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often a bit of a reset where
children learn to unlearn from

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their experience of previous
schools.

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And so they do sit in trees and
they do play a lot, irrespective

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00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,440
of their age.
The thing that's fundamental to

227
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,200
us is that when you put your
hand on a door and enter a room

228
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,680
out of choice, my experience has
been that the brain lights up in

229
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,520
a way which it doesn't.
If you're coerced now, it

230
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,240
doesn't mean that there aren't
amazing children all over the

231
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,240
planet.
You can go into coercive

232
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,720
situations and still tap into
their genius.

233
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,800
They understand that teachers
care and want to take them on a

234
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,760
fascinating journey, of course.
But I see lots of children find

235
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,360
that they can't.
They then become actors.

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00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:26,120
They begin to behave like some
pupil that they imagine in their

237
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:27,400
head.
In other words, they're not

238
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,040
really present.
The child that's acting the

239
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,040
pupil is present.
So for us, the risk is worth it.

240
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,520
Now, what does that risk look
like for some children?

241
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,800
It's three weeks playing on a
swing for some children, and the

242
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,120
most extreme cases, and we
shouldn't base our schools on

243
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,280
anecdotes, but there are
children who spend a very, very

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00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,960
long time not going to many
classes at all.

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00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,600
There's one girl in particular
who spent three years doing all

246
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,040
her education by sitting at
lunch tables, talking to adults,

247
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,680
talking to friends, playing
music, reading books, and barely

248
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:04,240
went to a class.
And at 14 decided that she

249
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,440
wanted to be Cambridge Scholar
as well and started to work at

250
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,080
14, got all her exams, got the
best day levels at her local

251
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,400
college and went straight to
Cambridge on a scholarship.

252
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,520
Now she's a rare anecdote and we
shouldn't base the school on

253
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,920
those because that's not really
a true story for most kids.

254
00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,880
If you're surrounded by
passionate, caring and loving

255
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,760
teachers, choice is easy because
you hear on the Grapevine that

256
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,880
Sean's psychology classes are
really cool to go to and you

257
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,880
don't hear shouting, you don't
see anything that's fearful.

258
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,600
All you're left with is your
personal fears in your baggage

259
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,240
you're carrying about.
Oh my God, I'm rubbish at Mass.

260
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,320
But then you hear that Nathan's
lovely and he makes everyone

261
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,320
feel really capable, but it
doesn't mean that we're going to

262
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,320
massage children into all
choosing.

263
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,480
Otherwise that would be like a
cult, you know, say, oh, this

264
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,120
school's around choice, but
everyone's in class.

265
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,640
It wouldn't be working if
everyone was in class because

266
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,880
we've then managed to do
something else, which is to play

267
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,200
the same game that other schools
do, but with a different form of

268
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,480
coercion.
So I like the fact that when a

269
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,040
school inspector comes to Sam's
and says, Sean, the attendance

270
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,040
in your psychology is not very
good.

271
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,360
And I'll say, but ten of the 15
children are here.

272
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,080
And she says, well, that's only
about 66% attendance.

273
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,560
And I say, no, that's 100%
attendance.

274
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,440
And she goes, I don't really
understand what you just said to

275
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,120
me because 10 chose to do it.
Five are doing something else.

276
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,120
But the ten who come, that's
100%.

277
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,840
And the fact that and the fact
that five aren't here for me is

278
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,720
a celebration because if all 15
had come, they didn't want to,

279
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,360
that would be a problem.
But the ten who said they would

280
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,560
are amazing.
So there's something between

281
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,160
that there's like.
It also is also true to share

282
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,960
that there are days when those
children who you think are

283
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,600
amazing at coming don't turn up
because they're sitting on a

284
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,640
sofa having a chat about
something just as important.

285
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,760
Well, they've gone downtown to
have a sandwich.

286
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,240
And you've also got to deal with
that because choice opens up

287
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,560
those risks.
That the sandwich is more

288
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,760
appealing than my psychology
class.

289
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,160
That's a bit that's going to
stretch your ego.

290
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,680
That's a That's a pretty good
sandwich, by the sounds of

291
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,640
things.
So what?

292
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,360
What would a typical day and
week look like at the Sand

293
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:31,920
School through the eyes of a
student?

294
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,760
What?
What's happening on a typical

295
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,720
week?
Yeah, OK, maybe we should.

296
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,280
Let's let's pick a couple of
students.

297
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,960
So we've got, and these are
slight, slightly extreme.

298
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,600
So apologies for again, it feels
a bit anecdotal, but it's quite

299
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,040
nice to show the sort of
extremes.

300
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,480
So we have a young girl who's
13.

301
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,280
No, she's faulting now and for
the last year she's been coming

302
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,440
in with a teacher very early
8:00 because she practice piano.

303
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,880
She's she's taking herself from
Grade 1 to grade 181212 months.

304
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,319
She practices constantly.
She goes to all her classes

305
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,200
because she loves the
scaffolding of classes.

306
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,119
She's plays every lunchtime.
She plays a game with friends

307
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,200
like Werewolf or they do card
games.

308
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,240
At one stage there was a sort of
mad passion to do backgammon,

309
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,040
which all sounds very esoteric
and clever, right?

310
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,880
But just really playful.
I got to learn backgammon with

311
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,400
her and she slaughtered me for
months and months.

312
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,560
She would have a very
conventional, it wouldn't look

313
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,800
very different to a very
aspirational child in an elite

314
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,560
private school.
But none of this is being, she's

315
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,560
not being manoeuvred into any of
this is purely from her passion

316
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,800
and choice.
And she goes to classes because

317
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,400
she loves them.
She's also very clear and

318
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,040
critical about other things
going wrong.

319
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,920
And then at 4:30 she's
absolutely shattered and she

320
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,560
goes home with her mum who's one
of our school administrators.

321
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,760
So she has like the ultimately
conventional, looks like I say,

322
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,000
very aspirational young private
school student and very happy.

323
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,920
If we go to the other extreme,
we'd have someone who'd come in

324
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,760
and maybe help me cook in the
kitchen because I'm making

325
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,880
biscuits first thing.
And then 10 minutes into that

326
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,960
goes, I can't really concentrate
on making biscuits.

327
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:22,960
Sure.
And I need to go and play

328
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,400
outside and they'll run down to
the climbing wall and they'll

329
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,520
spend an hour in the climbing
wall and then they might do one

330
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,400
or two classes before lunch.
But they're very sort of

331
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,640
physically like they need to
move around a lot.

332
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,400
Maybe it was one of our very
neuro diverse kids spend lunch

333
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,720
time playing football on the
sports court and then the

334
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,960
afternoon might not go to any
classes or might hang out in

335
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,960
woodwork all afternoon, running
in and out and doing bits, maybe

336
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,520
turning a ball by the end of the
afternoon.

337
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,200
And they'd look like more like
an adult who would have very

338
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,920
long periods of time committed
to something like woodwork.

339
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,040
Or if you're doing pottery, you
don't stop pottery cutters a

340
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,960
bell just as you're about to get
to the key bit and we don't have

341
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,760
any bells.
So we have children who have

342
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,640
very, very organised lives and
children who have much more

343
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,000
chaotic lives which fit the
rhythm of their bodies.

344
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:18,080
Quite hard as an educator to
encompass all that.

345
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,760
But they have a sort of the sort
of polar opposite and in the

346
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,160
middle, lots of children doing
lots of the very conventional

347
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,080
timetable.
I just also true that from we

348
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:36,240
had a Ukrainian refugee join us
at the age of 11 and decided to

349
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,480
learn all her English by not
going to English but by going to

350
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,280
all my history and psychology
classes.

351
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,880
And so I was 11.
She would be in every class, but

352
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,880
I don't start teaching
psychology till kids are 14.

353
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,960
So she'd just hang out with all
1456 year olds.

354
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,280
So she would do 3 or 4
psychology classes a day.

355
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,960
So that's possible.
And she's obviously now fluent

356
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,840
and she's clearly very good at
psychology, but it's very

357
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,640
unpredictable and trying to.
And The thing is that if you're

358
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,720
running an ordinary school, it
doesn't mean that all those

359
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,720
magic things don't happen.
Because they do in sort of

360
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,800
strange ways.
It just happens that we created

361
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,080
an environment where they happen
much much more.

362
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:25,800
So what happens then if when
conflicts arise, particularly if

363
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,880
they're between students or
between students and staff, or

364
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,000
there's a fundamental
disagreement on something, how,

365
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,080
how does that get worked
through?

366
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:37,720
I think that's, that's a really
cool question because things

367
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,120
have changed dramatically since
we started the school.

368
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,160
The constitution we wrote in
1986 so we could start in 1987

369
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,720
was that the school meeting was
the head teacher and it was

370
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,480
accepted by the Department of
Education.

371
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,640
So the powers normally held by
governors and head teacher are

372
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,160
held by the school meeting,
which is all the voting members

373
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,600
of the school, all the staff and
children.

374
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,920
So things like expulsions and
staff discipline would happen

375
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,320
initially in that small meeting
of everyone.

376
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,120
It might have been explored
elsewhere, but the dishes making

377
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:12,800
happened there.
Then I went to a school called

378
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,560
Sabri Valley back in 199192,
which is an intriguing

379
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,680
alternative school in America,
and they had a thing called

380
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,760
Judicial Council, which was a
much, much more intimate

381
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,080
gathering of children who handle
everyday behaviour issues.

382
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,960
I came back and suggested that
it would be much more

383
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,960
interesting and and develop
better skills if the children

384
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,800
were involved in these more
intimate conversations with

385
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,280
people when behaviour was a
problem.

386
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,880
So ever since then we've had our
school council and they would

387
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,160
deal with daily issues.
They do get some training in

388
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,400
conflict resolution, nonviolent
communication, it's very

389
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,320
informal, but they would be
coached by us.

390
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,920
And then once you've got the
school council meeting, two of

391
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,000
those experienced counsellors
would stay on and act as a

392
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,120
mentor to the new groups coming
through.

393
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:04,760
So there's this historical cycle
that people have experienced how

394
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,440
to work with conflict and
behaviour.

395
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,720
Now since that started, the last
five years we've had an

396
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:18,120
evolution of Department of
Education guidance for us as

397
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:21,120
well as every school.
And so now children wouldn't be

398
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:25,160
allowed to be involved in making
a final decision on expulsion.

399
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,480
So although they can still help
monitor behaviour, that now

400
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,400
would have to go to a panel of
adults.

401
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,960
But the school could advise us
that they'd reached a point of

402
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,400
no return with the student.
Everything but that.

403
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,240
Everything but the expulsion can
still be dealt with by a group

404
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,320
of 6 skilled children who'd been
voted to handle it.

405
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,520
And they would also be part of
handling conflicts with adults.

406
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,320
And the deal would be that every
adult, an adult has a mentor

407
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,160
which would help them navigate a
complex issue where the children

408
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,200
were happy with them.
And every child has a tutor

409
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,800
who's obviously welcome to be in
the room when the school cast

410
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,960
were talking to them.
But yeah, we've had 30 years of

411
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,640
young people helping manage
behaviour in the school.

412
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,360
And we do have everything from
children breaking our drug and

413
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,480
alcohol rule, you know, older
teenagers who take real risks,

414
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,120
right down to everyday bullying
to petty theft.

415
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,280
All those things happen.
They tend to be generally to do

416
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,640
with people being unkind to each
other.

417
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,160
But we they've had to deal with,
you know, everything from, you

418
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,720
know, illegality through to
extreme bullying.

419
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,400
And so are there any non
negotiables, whether that's in

420
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:44,600
relation and to behaviour or
just in relation to general

421
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,800
structures and processes?
And if there are, who decides

422
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,080
them and and why?
Yeah.

423
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,600
So there's the the drug and
alcohol rules are non

424
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,000
negotiable.
So if you're in possession of or

425
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,040
under the influence of drugs or
alcohol, then you will be

426
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,240
immediately suspended for a week
end of.

427
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,640
And then the school would make a
decision with parents about

428
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,160
whether it makes sense to
return.

429
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,440
And the way we've tended to work
for all these years is an

430
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,200
understanding that once a
child's reflected, anything else

431
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,680
starts to look like revenge.
So there would, there wouldn't

432
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,000
necessarily even be a punishment
after suspension.

433
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,360
Although if a child's done
something which has harmed the

434
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,520
community, then often they would
be offered the opportunity to

435
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,800
decide for themselves with that
council what they could do in

436
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,000
terms of community service to
pay back into the community and

437
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000
rebuild relationship.
So that all the children know

438
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,040
that they've not just reflected,
but the reflection takes a

439
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,120
physical form, be that cooking
for a week or doing extra

440
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,560
tidying or maybe doing some
mentoring with younger kids or

441
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,080
being a climbing wall
instructor.

442
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,960
Other than that, apart from we
have a code of conduct as adults

443
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,160
which is not negotiable and it's
you know, obviously following

444
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,720
safeguarding principles which is
non negotiable.

445
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,160
So even though we'd be a school
which values relationship, the

446
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,280
the fundamental safeguarding
principles that control every

447
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,600
school still exist in every
progressive school across the

448
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,320
country.
Other than that, there's a rule

449
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,840
that says you have to take your
shoes off if you walk upstairs

450
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,120
to protect the carpets, if you
eat lunch you have to wash up.

451
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,760
Everyone has to tidy up once a
day.

452
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,360
And if you don't, you might find
yourself as an adult or a child

453
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,200
sitting in front of school
council explaining why it is

454
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,120
that you think an 11 year old is
doing your tidying for you.

455
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,480
And that's pretty hard.
If you're a 55 year old teacher

456
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,400
and you're sitting in front of a
group of six kids, say you need

457
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,800
to explain why that phone call
at 4:15 was more important than

458
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,960
the Hoover.
If you can convince us that the

459
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,000
phone call was utterly
essential, it had to be done,

460
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,600
then we're fine.
But if you just decided to,

461
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,360
you're going to have to talk to
us.

462
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,080
I think that's really cool.
Have you been called in front of

463
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,960
the school council before?
Well, the most dramatic was I

464
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,800
don't often, but there was,
well, recently I've had a thing

465
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,320
where I've, I've been teaching
this thing called project, which

466
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,960
is an amazing self-directed
study which you can either

467
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,760
produce an artifact, be it a
cake or a dance or a piece of

468
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,000
clothing or write a 2000 word
essay.

469
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,480
And both myself and my fellow
teacher overmarked it.

470
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,640
We we thought we had these
amazing projects.

471
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,600
And when it came back, everyone
had been marked down and I had

472
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,760
to answer to the school council.
You know how I'd managed to get

473
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,760
my markings so wrong after 40
years teaching because they were

474
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,040
like, kids won't want to come to
your class if they want to do a

475
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,360
qualification and you don't know
how to market or you over

476
00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:47,800
market.
Could you just take us through

477
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,720
this because we want to go back
to the school and say it's fine.

478
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,240
Sean and the other teacher have
learned that lesson and there's

479
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,360
an explanation.
And that was really good.

480
00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:00,960
I felt like I'd already learned
my lesson once I saw the grades,

481
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,480
but really helpful for students
to go.

482
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,080
It isn't that we want to tell
you of.

483
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,800
We want to be able to get back
to the school to say that they

484
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,680
can have confidence that you
will be able to mark their work

485
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,880
in a way which reflects how well
they've done.

486
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,480
That was that was, that was
good.

487
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,680
That's a nice example.
But the most dramatic was 10

488
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,640
years into Sands when I was
about to become a dad for the

489
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,240
first time.
I wasn't sure whether I should

490
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,080
stay because I didn't know
whether I could parent all these

491
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,240
children and parent my own
children.

492
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,920
And I, I decided to be a nomadic
teacher.

493
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,800
I decided that what I would do
for some strange illogical

494
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,920
reason that I would then move
from, I'd move and teach in any

495
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,000
spare space and children had to
find me.

496
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,880
It's utterly stupid idea, but it
was more that I should have lost

497
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,720
my center.
I was like spinning as like a

498
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,720
dad and I was thinking uncle and
I didn't really know what I was

499
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,320
doing.
I was what about 3510 years into

500
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,640
teaching thought that I wouldn't
be able to do Anyway, The

501
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,200
children called a school meeting
and I was asked to sit in

502
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,720
another room while they talked
about me with the other staff.

503
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:08,520
And then a teacher came and said
the children would just like to

504
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,120
know this.
And I said I was waiting for

505
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:11,960
something really terrible.
They said the children want to

506
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,320
know why you don't love them
anymore.

507
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,880
I said I do.
And they said, well, it doesn't

508
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,080
look like it.
It looks like you're not paying

509
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,200
attention to them.
You're unavailable.

510
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,520
You've, you've become like the
shadow in the school and what

511
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,200
they're thinking is you don't
care anymore.

512
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,720
And how much do you care?
And if you don't care, they say

513
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,800
you should leave.
So I went back into the meeting

514
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,800
and explained how much I cared
and, and sort of tried to share

515
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,560
where I was in my life, which
was amazing to have the

516
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,960
opportunity to be that
vulnerable in front of the group

517
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,000
of kids.
Now, new movements in the law

518
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,560
have meant that that would be
more difficult because what

519
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,120
would happen now is if a group
of children called a meeting

520
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,760
about a teacher, if the teacher
wasn't able to deal with it,

521
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,880
they would use the grounds of
constructed dismissal.

522
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,800
They would argue they're being
bullied out of the school.

523
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,760
I didn't see it like that.
I, you know, obviously as one of

524
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,160
the founders, I see myself as,
as like something the children

525
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,480
can practice their voice on.
And I have enormous faith that

526
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,800
they're not doing it from a
place of being vitriolic.

527
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,360
They were genuinely concerned
and had to find a way to

528
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,600
verbalize it.
So I was really happy to be

529
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,240
going to experiment upon me, but
that's not the case of all our

530
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,960
staff.
And it would be very difficult,

531
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,280
I think teachers in other
schools to think that fifty

532
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,600
children had gathered, called a
meeting to talk about them.

533
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,400
I was really, I was felt very
vulnerable, but I felt very

534
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,360
relieved.
I had a chance to communicate

535
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,400
and they were able to share what
they saw.

536
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,960
So yes, it's I've been there for
me, it's very healthy.

537
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,360
Doesn't mean it's not daunting
because it really is daunting to

538
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,600
answer to 11 year old, but proof
of the democratic structure and

539
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,800
I really want to keep working on
that because it's very easy to

540
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,960
lose it.
There's sometimes I think

541
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,640
perhaps there's a misconception
of the types of kids that do

542
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,760
well or thrive in an alternative
school environment.

543
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,720
Perhaps it's kids with behaviour
problems or academic challenges

544
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,600
of some sort.
What?

545
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,240
What kinds of young people do
you see that tend to thrive at

546
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,880
the Sand School?
Yeah, I would think that if we

547
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,760
were to try and break it up into
the sorts of children who come,

548
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,000
we have a lot of children who
feel invisible in bigger

549
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,400
schools.
They feel unnoticed.

550
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,800
It doesn't mean that teachers
aren't trying really hard,

551
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,280
because they really are, but the
scale of bigger schools means

552
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,520
that their needs aren't met.
So we have children who are

553
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,880
often very neuro diverse, super
capable, super talented, but

554
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,680
there isn't space within the
neurotypical structure of giant

555
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,120
places and weird.
It's weird isn't it, that the

556
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,440
bigger a place, the more
inflexible it can be.

557
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,760
So they need somewhere small,
which has got lots of

558
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,080
flexibility.
So a child who needs to move

559
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,760
around a lot in the classroom,
they can do that in my room

560
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,120
because eventually the kids
would go, hey, Ben, you've had

561
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,120
your 10 minutes pacing of the
down like a lion.

562
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,400
We've reached the point where we
can't focus now, but we get it.

563
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,200
And he goes, oh, that really
helped me settle myself.

564
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,640
So and small classes.
So children who are drawn to

565
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,160
something that's small, more
intimate.

566
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,080
So sometimes they're running
away from.

567
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,920
So it's push pull factors, isn't
it?

568
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,200
So with the the pull factors are
parents have heard about the

569
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,520
school and are committed to
democratic philosophy.

570
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,920
That would probably represent
1/3 to half our children who are

571
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,480
everything from neurodiverse to
neurotypical, but they're drawn

572
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,120
to a democratic relational
school.

573
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,280
But the other half are children
who definitely have the sorts of

574
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:50,160
learning needs or anxiety or
carry with them some trauma,

575
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,840
family situation.
But a lot of our children might

576
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,480
be adopted or fostered.
And so the nurturing small

577
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,480
atmosphere is one that's going
to then allow them to flourish

578
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,040
like kids would flourish in
other schools because it's not

579
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,840
as if our grades at the end that
they're, they're perfectly good.

580
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,600
Some years they're amazing, but
they're amazing because that

581
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,320
cohort would have incredibly
talented, able children and they

582
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,200
would have done equally well in
a state school or other

583
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,280
independent.
The difference is that we would

584
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,720
probably say that most children
would say that every day they

585
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,880
were happy, whereas you might
get to the end of Independent

586
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,160
School or state school
experience and say, well, I got

587
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,320
my grades, but not a lot of that
was very good.

588
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,040
And it wasn't very playful and
it wasn't very joyful.

589
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,880
So yeah, 5050 mix.
But children who've been

590
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:46,560
traumatized by life in different
ways really flourish in schools

591
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,000
that have got a relational
heart.

592
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,200
And it doesn't mean that the
children who'd come with almost

593
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,800
all the advantages of amazing,
amazing family, lucky life

594
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:02,320
situations, you wouldn't know
which child was which, which is

595
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,760
I think probably one of the
great indicators of success.

596
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,400
You would look in a classroom
and you wouldn't know all these

597
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,920
scruffy kids, some of them in
their pyjamas, you know, you

598
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,240
just wouldn't know.
And I think that's testament to

599
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,360
what we're able to do.
And how do former students

600
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,400
reflect on their experience once
they leave the Sand School and

601
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,200
graduate or go on to other
things?

602
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,160
So one of the one of the
questions that's very often

603
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,880
asked by by parents when they
come when their children are

604
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,880
about 11 or 12 is this all looks
very nice, but it doesn't look

605
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,520
like the real world.
So what happens when they move

606
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,000
on at 17 to a higher college to
sixth form?

607
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,560
Because won't they have been so
sort of nurtured that they won't

608
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,400
be able to cope?
And actually it's sort of, it's

609
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,480
a fair question that if you
brought up in a loving

610
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,720
atmosphere and then you go to a
school which where the adults

611
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,800
haven't really got time for you,
it would seem that it might be

612
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,440
quite a traumatic transition.
And actually for our children

613
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,400
who carry who've carried the
most trauma in their lives, some

614
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,560
of them do find the transition
really, really complicated

615
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,480
because they're not noticed in
the same way.

616
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,480
And adults don't really have
time to to talk to them in the

617
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,080
way that they're being used to
the luxury of being in a small

618
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,159
school with lots of adults who
are genuinely interested in

619
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,719
young people's lives rather than
just teaching their subjects.

620
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,440
So definitely it's true that
some really struggle from from

621
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,320
this dysfunctional family
university style setting into

622
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,000
the into the bigger, wider
world.

623
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,920
I think it's really fair.
And I think that that would be a

624
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,360
sort of Fair criticism that you
can't actually coughen them up

625
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,320
enough.
And one of the challenges that

626
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,360
people throw at us is that, do
children instill a sort of grit

627
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,520
in themselves?
If you're in a school where

628
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,480
there's choice, do children not
choose to sort of walk away from

629
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,680
the most difficult bits?
And don't you need someone to

630
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,360
hold them through it so that
they do make the tough

631
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,640
decisions?
Because if they can choose to

632
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,160
walk away, won't they?
And that's true that some do,

633
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,200
absolutely.
But the vast majority of kids,

634
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,920
because we offer things like
Duke of Edinburgh, we do like

635
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,800
real dramatic adventures where
some of them find their that

636
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,000
grit.
And we do have teachers who are

637
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,880
so passionate about their
subjects, they don't let

638
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,160
children off the hook.
The difference is the way to get

639
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,880
them through the difficult stuff
isn't through coercion and fear

640
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,760
and and fear of shame.
It's finding a different

641
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,760
mechanism to get them to face,
you know, this is going to need

642
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,680
3 hours tonight.
How are you going to do it?

643
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,440
What are you going to do to
actually get through and finish

644
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,280
this essay on time?
But I think the underlying thing

645
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,440
about about your question, which
is absolutely right.

646
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,080
Do schools like this help
children develop deep resilience

647
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,320
and grit, even if they know that
they're loved and cared for?

648
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,800
Yeah, the proof's sort of in the
pudding.

649
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,000
And some of our children
definitely leave softer than the

650
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,440
world requires.
Have you had the opportunity to,

651
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,800
you know, you mentioned 39 years
there now the opportunity

652
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,520
students that have graduated
perhaps 10 years, 15 years, 20

653
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,960
years ago and follow up the the
later in life of the they've had

654
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,600
a broader experience and and
time for a reflection on those

655
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,440
formative years.
What's that been like?

656
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,560
Yeah, so of about the thousand
children have been through the

657
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,720
school, there's about 400 and
5500 still in contact on a big

658
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,360
on big Facebook groups.
So I still know a lot.

659
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:41,440
So one of our students from the
very, very first year I met in

660
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,480
the pub 2 Sundays ago.
I met him when he was an 11 year

661
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:51,600
old boy into 16 schools before
he joined us and he now has a

662
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,480
teenage son and he talked with
complete love of his experience

663
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,160
of the school.
And we were a bit more chaotic

664
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,040
in those early days.
And I think that it's fair to

665
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,000
say that some of the children,
the atmosphere was much more

666
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,920
playful and chaotic and organic
than it is now.

667
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,320
I think we've, we've grown up
with, we've grown up with the

668
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,680
school.
So we passed our teens.

669
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,760
The school is no longer a
teenager now it's a sort of

670
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,840
grown up and it feels like it.
But I have lots and lots of

671
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,200
young people who have gone on to
Cambridge themselves.

672
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:29,120
So you know, I was saying that I
met a 51 year old in the pub 2

673
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,160
Sundays ago who's one of our
first pupils.

674
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,160
He came when he was 11, had been
to 16 school before he joined

675
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,200
us.
He was there with his old

676
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,480
teenage son, talking with
complete love and fascination of

677
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,560
his experience of the school.
But we were, we've grown as

678
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:45,480
well.
The school has grown.

679
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,520
It's gone through its childlike,
organic, crazy phase.

680
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,360
It's gone through its teens in
the sort of 90s and in the 90s.

681
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,920
And now it feels like it's a
grown up school which has still

682
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,640
got driven by those deep
principles.

683
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,600
So we have children who are two
of our kids, one Michelin stars

684
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,160
in the in the restaurants they
set up.

685
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,840
We've got kids who've gone to
Cambridge and Oxford, kids have

686
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,720
gone to Bali and sold T-shirts,
children who are really just

687
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,560
happy married couples doing, you
know, everyday lovely jobs.

688
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,320
I think the difference would be,
and although lots of our

689
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,200
children move into performing
arts and are self-employed and

690
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,480
move into creative arts, that's
not true of all.

691
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,800
And some have gone to the
military and into the fire

692
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,440
service and police service.
So it's not as if it's this is a

693
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,680
school which is anti authority
in that way.

694
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,720
The difference would be, I'm
pretty sure, but they're doing

695
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,120
something they're passionate
about and they've they've

696
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,360
developed some amazing skills of
communication in critical, sort

697
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,640
of critical thinking.
Yeah.

698
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,280
About 500 kids still in contact.
The oldest student I've taught

699
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,520
because I was 20.
They were 20 when I was 23, when

700
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,000
I started teaching Dartington.
So then now 60, which doesn't

701
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,760
even seem possible that I could
have taught someone who's 60.

702
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,320
That doesn't make any
mathematical sense.

703
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,680
Yeah, and I'm off to London
tomorrow and I'm going to go and

704
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,680
watch one of our ex students who
was the very, very first person

705
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,720
on the admissions book called
Jonathan Allen, who's a

706
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:11,680
professional musician, going to
go watching in London, perform,

707
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,760
still mates, have a beer
together.

708
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,680
And I think that's like a really
nice indicator that, you know,

709
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,840
they're still in my life.
I'm godparent to some of their

710
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,160
children.
I'm teaching the children of the

711
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,920
children I taught.
That's going to, yeah, make you

712
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,440
feel a bit old.
Old Yeah, if I get through to

713
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,760
the teaching the grandchildren,
then I reckon it's time to hang

714
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,440
up the boots.
Yeah, perhaps, perhaps.

715
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,480
So look, a lot of people might
be listening to this, working in

716
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,920
more traditional schools,
whether that's schools, head

717
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,000
teachers, educators, whoever.
And they're like thinking, well,

718
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,760
that all sounds great.
But so if there was, you know,

719
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,640
something meaningful or a
meaningful step or something

720
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,960
they could take and say, well,
look, what's one thing that I

721
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:09,120
can do today in high school that
works in your school?

722
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,040
Either gives kids more choice or
more flexibility or have more

723
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,160
say in things.
What what, what could that be?

724
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,840
Yeah.
So I work in, I work in quite a

725
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,800
lot of state schools and this
thing you've got to be really

726
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,280
careful of.
I would go in 1520 years ago and

727
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,600
we'd do these sort of workshops
in democratic structures and

728
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,480
then you leave and you've you
haven't created anything that

729
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,680
can be embedded in the structure
of the school.

730
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,040
It will make a difference
because all those other cultures

731
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,760
are.
Are there fundamentally in

732
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,160
opposition perhaps to what
you've introduced?

733
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,680
So I sort of gave up on trying
to walk in like some sort of

734
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,480
dead poet society teacher and
entertain kids with ideas about

735
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,000
voice and choice.
I think it's I think it's more

736
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,400
interesting to offer thinking
tools because every teacher ever

737
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:01,600
met.
Sometimes they're more

738
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,880
passionate about their subjects
than their children, but most

739
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,120
are actually passionate about
children and more children grow.

740
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,760
So one of the tools Ioffer
people I'll share 21 is that if

741
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,120
you were to imagine either your
classroom or your school is like

742
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,360
a planet and the surface of the
planet could be what your

743
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,240
classroom looks like.
Mine looks like a mixture

744
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:22,840
between a jungle and a
classroom.

745
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,480
And the surface of the planet
matters because that's and the

746
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,400
children are imagine the like
their moons or satellites

747
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,240
orbiting it.
But the thing that holds them

748
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:38,480
around you is not what the
plastion looks like or how slick

749
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,920
your lesson is.
Yeah.

750
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,080
It's the gravity that's created
by the core.

751
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,960
And you have to ask yourself
what you bring as a sort of

752
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,160
gravitational feel that holds
children.

753
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,120
And if you use fear and shame,
it still looks the same.

754
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,400
They keep spinning around the
planet.

755
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:01,600
But if you use interest in them
and joyfulness and excitement

756
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,280
and some of it's unpredictable
and you take them on a journey,

757
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,480
at the heart of that, the
gravitational field at the core

758
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,440
of yours, is that it still looks
the same.

759
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,320
And then the black holes, which
is sort of outside that, you

760
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,320
know, their hunger, fighting
with your boyfriend, Ria, with

761
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,640
your mum and dad, all that stuff
which pulls children into the

762
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,280
black hole.
Your gravitational field might

763
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,800
just work well enough to hold
them.

764
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,280
As I say, they both look the
same.

765
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,000
They feel really different to
children.

766
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,880
So that would be one thing like
what you want to have as the

767
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,240
core.
But when you walk into a space,

768
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,320
and that also means that the
your surface of your planet can

769
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,480
be pretty bare because there are
some schools that just can't

770
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,880
afford to resource their
children the way that I would be

771
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,920
able to fill my room.
And the other is for teachers to

772
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,240
consider the three capitals in a
triangle, informational capital,

773
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,600
which I have loads of now, but
eventually when senility kicks

774
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,720
in, my informational capital
will start to drop dramatically.

775
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,520
Then I have my cultural capital,
which is my understanding of the

776
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,240
school I'm in.
And if I combine my information

777
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:10,960
on my cultural, I can deliver
the information in a way which

778
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,880
suits the culture.
And then underpinning that, the

779
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,080
other bit, the triangle is my
Personal Capital, my belief

780
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,040
system, my care for children, my
ethics.

781
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,600
And at some moment, a teacher
will have those in like a magic

782
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,360
synergy.
And in the middle of that is the

783
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,760
relational classroom when your
cultural capital, information

784
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,920
and Personal Capital all
resonate like at the same

785
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,640
frequency.
And it's like working on all of

786
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,960
them.
And most teachers will have, you

787
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,200
know, you might be in conflict
with the culture you're in.

788
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,880
You need to work on that.
You might find your

789
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,440
informational capital is poor
and the children know you don't

790
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,160
know your stuff.
Yeah.

791
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,920
And you just let your ego go and
go.

792
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,240
I really don't know my stuff and
they've seen through me.

793
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,360
Right.
So work on your informational

794
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,480
capital.
And if you walk in, haven't had

795
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,040
a row with your partner, open
the window before you drive in

796
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,120
and let it out.
Work on your Personal Capital.

797
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,120
And again, it's not.
And I think those things are

798
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,120
honouring the children at the
centre of of our work.

799
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,280
And that's all I'd say.
Is that finishing?

800
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,200
We're nearly over.
I'd like to like just as a

801
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,360
story, I have a girl I work with
about cystic fibrosis, and she

802
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,800
knew she wasn't going to make it
probably to 23.

803
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,360
And so for her, every day in the
classroom was life.

804
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:29,440
So it wasn't any good me saying
if you do this, it'll help you

805
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,240
be a more successful searcher.
This is going to help with your

806
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:34,920
retirement plan.
This is going to be about

807
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,280
marriage and children.
So every day was precious.

808
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,440
And so for her to give up an
hour of her life to be with me

809
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,440
in a history class was a
precious gift she was giving me.

810
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,360
And I hold on to that when I
have kids walking, knowing that

811
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,920
at Sands they could be doing
something else.

812
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,080
So they're honoring me by
saying, will you take me on a

813
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,800
journey that's worthwhile
because I'm giving up an hour of

814
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,760
my life.
And maybe, and I know that

815
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,720
children in other schools are
coerced into or have to, but if

816
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:06,560
we had that as a way in our
heads that we should honor the

817
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,880
fact that they're the hour
they're with us.

818
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,240
For this young girl with cystic
fibrosis, every hour's pressure,

819
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,920
she could be kissing her
boyfriend in the car park.

820
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,400
That would have been.
That's going to be so much more

821
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:18,880
exciting than Sean's history
class.

822
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,160
I'd better make the history
class damn good to honor the

823
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,160
fact that 12 year olds deserve
to be the best 12 year olds they

824
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:31,680
can be rather than excuse our
behavior by saying this is

825
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,400
helping you get to be 19.
Trust me, if you do this, you'll

826
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,560
be a successful 23 year old.
Maybe we should just let go of

827
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,640
that and maybe embrace the
rhythm of the children and go to

828
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,600
be 15.
We should really honour what

829
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,120
that is.
Fantastic.

830
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,560
So a couple of quick questions
to to finish up on now, Sean, if

831
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,080
you don't mind.
So what's your favorite book?

832
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,400
The Wizard of Earth Seed by
Ashley Lillard Gwen.

833
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,080
I'll explain why.
Shall I explain why very

834
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:03,520
briefly?
Yeah, please, please.

835
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,640
I thought it was my favorite
book when I at 10 years old, I

836
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,160
was in an advanced readers class
at primary school and was

837
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,800
allowed to sit in the head
teacher's office with about six

838
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,840
to seven kids, all very elite,
that we could just read for two

839
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,920
hours, which was that, Oh my
God, this is heaven.

840
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,040
And I read Lord of the Rings and
all the fantasy books and June

841
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,600
and all that as a very
precocious young person.

842
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,640
But there's something about
Wizard of Earthsea which got me.

843
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,760
And then I realised as a teacher
much later that the way that

844
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,600
Ursula Quinn describes magic is
that you need to understand the

845
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,720
name of a thing before you can
change it.

846
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:46,240
And that is my go to formula in
my head that unless I understand

847
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:50,280
the real name of the child, you
can't be involved in the act of

848
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,720
transformation.
And we all know as educators

849
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:54,920
what we mean by the real men.
Yeah.

850
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,400
And suddenly I realized it was
my favorite book of all time

851
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:03,560
because it it described the
magic that I think we can do in

852
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,800
the classroom, which is
understanding the names of the

853
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,480
children and then helping the
rock become the flower or the

854
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,520
flower become the rock because
it sands these very delicate,

855
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,400
lovely flowers.
We need to help them develop the

856
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:19,440
grit, you know?
So that's my favorite book and I

857
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,800
it's one of those books I go
back to in the summer holidays

858
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,960
and reread and I'm lying on the
beach completely exhausted and

859
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,680
it takes me back to being a
precocious 10 year old.

860
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,200
A leader, past or present, you
admire and why.

861
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,400
So I practice something called
Qigong every day, and the

862
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,600
founding father of Qigong is a
guy called Lao Zu, and quite a

863
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,080
lot of things like Hippocrates
and others.

864
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,600
It's probably many, many
philosophers and thinkers whose

865
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:52,080
work has been attributed to Lao
Zu, but he has a one of the

866
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,760
sayings in Chidong is Wuwei,
which means effortless action.

867
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,640
And a little bit like in
Chariots of Fire when the person

868
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,000
leaps over the hurdles with the
champagne glasses on the top,

869
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,520
that's the most, that's the most
revolting version of effortless

870
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,800
action, right?
Because it comes from who knows

871
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,760
what, a sense of privilege and
and superiority.

872
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,920
But there's something about if
you're if you're living your

873
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,320
life in harmony with your
intention, then the effort you

874
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,960
put in is more effortless
because you've found you've

875
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,720
found your groove.
And I think that I think, yeah,

876
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:31,720
I may have found the groove or
as I say, become unemployable.

877
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,440
But where effortless action is
something which I think children

878
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,880
also when they're in in the
presence of it, it's really

879
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,960
inspiring.
It's that passionate teacher

880
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,120
who's just in the the flow of
the three capitals.

881
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,200
And there are days when I feel
still at 63, that I've I found

882
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,720
my Wu way.
And finally, best piece of

883
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:54,200
advice you've ever received.
Right, yeah, from my dad, My

884
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,600
dad, he said, and this is about
living in the world we live in.

885
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,640
But one from my dad and more
from my dad said you only need

886
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,480
as many chairs as you've got
asses.

887
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,800
And my granny said, my granny
said to me, you'll never feel

888
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,080
unless when you realize that the
only time you realize you've

889
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,560
enough is when you realise that
less than enough is more than

890
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,880
enough.
Very good, very good.

891
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,000
Well, I think that seems like a,
a good place to leave it.

892
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,640
So thank you so much for for
joining me today.

893
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,160
Sean, I really enjoyed our
conversation.

894
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,480
Thank you so much.
Thanks, Kevin.

895
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:34,280
Yeah, enjoy the rest of the day.
Yeah, thanks so much for

896
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,240
listening to the episode.
If you enjoyed this

897
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,560
conversation, don't forget to
subscribe, like, follow, et

898
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,920
cetera.
Drop a comment below to let me

899
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,040
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900
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:50,280
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901
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,080
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