Dr Simon Breakspear

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Welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

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I'm excited to welcome my guest
today, Doctor Simon Brakespeare.

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Simon is an educational
researcher, former high school

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teacher, and father of three.
As a founder of Strategic

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Schools, he focuses on
supporting teams to enhance

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their impact on learning through
evidence, informed processes and

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tools.
He's an adjunct adjunct senior

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lecturer at the University of
NSW, an advisor to the NSW

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Department of Education on
leadership development and

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curriculum reform.
Simon holds a PhD in Education

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from the University of
Cambridge, where he was a Gates

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Scholar.
He's worked globally with over

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100,000 teachers, schools and
policy leaders across more than

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10 countries.
Welcome, Simon.

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Thanks.
Kevin, great to be with you.

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Thanks for the conversation.
Yeah.

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Thanks for joining me.
So I wanted to start a little

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bit on a personal note.
I understand you started as a

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classroom teacher before moving
into research and and sort of

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global advisory work.
What it was there a particular

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moment or experience that most
shaped that transition?

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Well, look, actually the
transition before that that I

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actually started.
My study in Med school, and I

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think I was always really
interested in how evidence can

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impact, I suppose, how certain
practitioners get to impact

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people's lives and in not just
individuals, but communities.

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I decided that there was a whole
lineup of people who wanted to

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take my place in Med school.
But at that point in 2001, there

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wasn't necessarily that strong
interest of saying, well, once

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someone gets well and they've
left hospital, they need to

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learn how to live and develop.
And for me, that's where schools

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came in.
And so I made a bit of a radical

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decision to say I want to
dedicate myself to education.

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I thought education was the
place to be and I wanted to

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start that work by actually
doing teaching.

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I actually did a psychology
degree.

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I didn't a four year psychology
degree because even back then I

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understood that fundamentally
education is about human

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development, learning and I
might even say formation.

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And so I thought actually the
discipline that could help me

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most get my head around that
was, was psychology.

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I had enough science for my Med
degree and other subjects I

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picked up to teach science.
And so I taught science.

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But to be honest, I would have
been happy teaching anything.

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And when I got a cover, an extra
to cover someone else, I'm, I'll

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teach maths, I'll teach
economics.

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I had left school, you know,
five years earlier or whatever

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else.
So I still knew the stuff and I

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really was very interested in
the processes of teaching in the

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context of community and how
that interplay between all the

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stuff you do in the
extracurricular.

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I was also a Year 12
coordinator, which is our final

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year of school here in New South
Wales, Australia.

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So helping people not just
transition through their exams,

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but transition into adulthood.
Like, what am I going to do

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beyond school?
But I suppose even just three

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years into that, I was asking
myself, OK, do I want to work in

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one school at a time?
Maybe contribute to a school for

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five to seven years at a time,
Maybe get through 5 schools or

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so.
And at that point I was working

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in a school that served, served
a lot of upper middle class kids

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in Sydney.
It was a great place to be.

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But I had this real sense of I,
I wanted to think about systems.

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And I think we're just all wired
differently.

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Kevin, I'm, I'm married to a
primary school teacher who loves

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being in classrooms.
In fact, she spends more of her

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time in learning support.
So not even one classroom, but

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classes of Tier 2 and tier one
support.

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She's getting right down to the
individual.

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And I was sort of wired up to
think, could we move many

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schools at the same time?
Could we move a state of

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schools?
Could you move a country of

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schools?
And for me, I just got

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interested in it.
And so I, I, I went and studied

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comparative education at Oxford
and then stayed on for my PhD.

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And that's been my path.
So for me, it's just, I think we

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need lots of different types of
people contributing in

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education.
The bulk of those need to be

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people who are wonderful
day-to-day, week to week

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practitioners.
And we also need people who move

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into school leadership like you,
and we need some who get their

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head around systems.
And at this point, I'm still

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convinced I can make the biggest
impact doing what I'm doing.

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But I'm open to moving back
towards a single school at some

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point.
I know lots of people who do my

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kind of work for a period of
time and it feels like they're

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pushing against the ocean.
And so sometimes there's a need

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just to come back to the local,
to be embedded in community and

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to serve the people you're with
and to teach the students in

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front of you, rather than often
working in more of the abstract

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around policy and larger scale
change.

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So you mentioned sort of a
number of transitions there and

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an evolving kind of approach to
things.

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Was there a particular belief
that you held early on in your

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career that you've since kind of
changed your mind or perspective

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on?
This one will be controversial,

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but I think I might have said
early days as a teacher, leave

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me alone.
I'm a teacher.

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I know.
I know my stuff.

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I'm good at what I'm doing.
Unless there's complaints about

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me, just kind of leave me alone.
And I think I've probably

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changed towards saying that
increasingly teaching is best

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done as a collective endeavour,
where our practice is open to

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both observation and feedback
from other colleagues.

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And also open that even though
I've been doing it in a certain

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way and it seems to be going all
right with my kids, there may

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well be a better way.
And that the evidence base

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around effective teaching and
learning and cognitive science

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might challenge some of the
things that I might think about,

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you know, how I like to teach or
what I think works.

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So I would definitely say
there's probably 2 areas there.

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One, a stronger view that
evidence should inform what I

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teach and that I shouldn't just
think, well, it's kind of worked

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for me in my experience.
So I, I'm OK, it probably

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working for me in my experience,
because at that point I was

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working with upper middle class
kids who got a lot of privilege

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and background and got read to
before they started school and

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had a rich vocabulary and
introduced to a whole range of

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social, cultural knowledge.
And I'd probably also say I've

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shifted towards being much more,
seeing our work as a

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collaborative and collective
endeavour that should be quite

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open to learning and feedback
and observation from others.

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Yeah.
So you mentioned, you know, an

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evidence base or evidence kind
of informed practice in in kind

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of translating research into
practical tools for schools.

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So why do you think that?
Well, at least in my experience.

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You might disagree, but why is
there still such a big gap

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between research and practice in
schools?

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Well, what do you reckon?
What's your What's your hunch?

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Well, look, I, I think, I think
there is a little bit of maybe

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it's not hubris, but like, you
know, I'm a head of school or

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I'm a head of department or I'm
a teacher.

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You know, I've got 20 years
experience, 30 years experience.

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I know what I'm doing.
It's worked.

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You know, who are you to come in
and tell me something different

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or, you know, or there's a, you
know, a point of view this won't

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work in, you know, this bit of
research is great, but that

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wouldn't work in my context or
my school.

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And I think a lot of people are
just super busy as well.

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And perhaps today, you know,
that's a maybe a nice to have

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and not a must have, but yeah.
They're good.

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They're I, I think what you're
getting to it's, it's a multi

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factorial problem here.
And you know, one of them is I

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don't have the bandwidth, you
know, I don't have the

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bandwidth.
When am I meant to be doing this

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learning and unlearning?
Another one might be I'm not

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even sure whether this is
relevant.

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It's research in a certain
context, but how do I know it's

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relevant to me?
It's it's it's a study of other

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kids and other teachers in other
places in the past.

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How do I derive, you know,
lessons about my kids now in the

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future and whether this would
work.

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So a a couple of things.
I build on your insights.

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One, we weren't trained as
educators in a evidence informed

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way at university.
So nurses, physios, OT speech

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pathologists, the other
equivalent professions to us,

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spend a lot more time
understanding the underlying

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anatomy, Physiology, formation
of language.

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They have a shared discipline or
for multiple, multiple

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disciplines in the true sense of
that word.

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And as they understand that
discipline, they understand what

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sorts of practices might have an
impact on that underlying

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Physiology or anatomy or or
whatever it is.

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Education, for some reason
really emerged where a lot of

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the academics who were doing
what we call research were doing

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critical theory.
They were doing forms of

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sociology.
They were thinking about hidden

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curriculum.
They were thinking about very

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important things to consider
around the building of education

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and the building of of
democracies and citizens.

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But there was never an agreement
in teachers colleges that then

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became faculties of education
that fundamentally the

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underlying discipline should
probably be cognitive and

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developmental psychology.
Now that's what I would have

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done.
I would have said the

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fundamental thing, you know, the
physio learns anatomy 1st and

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then works out a practice that
can manipulate and improve

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problems there.
The teacher is fundamentally

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interested in not just learning.
I think it's too narrow, but

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human development.
And we've got 100 years plus now

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of psychological findings,
cognitive science, behavioral

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science, developmental theories,
and rather just having a unit or

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two of that that should have
been the foundational piece of

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we as educators are trying to
cause a change in the trajectory

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in learning and development.
And what we need is a shared

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knowledge and a shared agreement
that we can know things about

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this area.
And then after knowing things

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about the fundamental, you know,
cognitive processes,

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motivational processes,
developmental processes, then

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our practice would be practices
that can be shown to accelerate

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or improve those things.
Instead, we don't have shared

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knowledge, as you know, shared
foundational understanding

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because we didn't get, given
that we got like 1 little unit

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in Ed psych at some point.
And then I would say also we

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didn't get inducted as a
research based profession.

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That is, it was never taught to
us that as ideas are tested and,

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and, and verified in rigorous
trials, that it's very likely

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that we might get up to updates
to our professional practice

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guidelines.
Like if a, if a nurse was

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trained like I was as a teacher,
you know, early 2000s, she's

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thinking like science isn't
about proving something once and

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for all.
It's a constant iterative

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updating process.
And as we know better, we do

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better.
And so even though I was a

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registered nurse in 2005, they
might say by the time it was

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2015 or, you know, sometimes it
takes they say 1115 years things

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from to move from the science
through to practice in medicine.

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I would expect some changes.
And it's not OK to say I'm a

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registered nurse.
It's like, yeah, you were a

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registered nurse, but soon
you'll be an unregistered nurse

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because you're a trained nurse
who's not using agreed practice

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guidelines.
So I think there's a couple of

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things now in Australia, we've
got a big push now in early

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teacher education to say that
some of this core foundational

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knowledge that I think we should
have all been exposed to

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cognitive science development
and some of the implications of

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that for teaching and learning
is now, you know, being covered

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in all of our courses.
But I think it's going to take

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quite a while to catch up.
And I think therefore, if you

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suddenly say to people you
should be evidence based, since

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it's like, well, I haven't had a
chance to learn about this

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fundamental evidence based.
I don't understand and I haven't

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been given an understanding of
different types of studies and

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the types of claims that I might
be able to make on those

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studies.
And by the way, everyone with a

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doctor or a professor in front
of their name came and you know,

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spooked all sorts of spooked all
sorts of ideas that weren't

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actually based on rigorous
studies.

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Then no wonder we've got people
who are either hesitant or

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skeptical.
That'll be my kind of hunch.

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But I would say on the OP, on
the on the plus side, just in a

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couple of half day sessions with
staff, introducing them to

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cognitive science, helping them
understand the limits of working

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memory, connecting what they
already know about STEAM schema

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formation to long term memory,
reasoning out the learning

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challenges they find in the
classrooms.

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And then asking what are the
evidence informed practices that

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might help you solve some of
those problems?

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I feel that, you know, often
given that time, people move

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very quickly.
What they don't like is some

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boring set of PowerPoints with
effect sizes that sort of says

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some researcher outside says, do
more of these stuff and less of

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this stuff.
And but evidence informed

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adaptive teaching, making better
decisions based on your

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understanding of science and
development, learning and human

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00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,960
development and what what
Stephen Higgins calls the best

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00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,280
bets.
It's not, you know, Dylan

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00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,560
Williams says we'll never be a
research based profession in the

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00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,640
sense of researchers can never
say, Kevin, after lunch with

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year nine, you should do this,
this, this.

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But I can say these are the high
probability shots that are

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highly likely to be useful for
most humans.

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So why don't you at least
initiate a lot of your

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improvements or think about
enhancing your craft around

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those best bets.
That would be, you know, a

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probably a better choice than
just listening to what someone

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in in your in your faculty
suggested, Yeah.

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I love how you framed that.
And, you know, Robert Mazzano

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00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,160
talks about like the art and the
science of teaching.

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Like we know these kinds of
things work most of the time,

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but the art of it is knowing
when and how to use and using

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that professional judgement and
experience and all of those

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things to put it together.
And you kind of answered my next

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question, which was, you know,
for school or an educator or

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00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,200
school leaders looking to say,
well, we want to be more, we

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want to use research better.
We want to be more evidence

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informed in what you're, you
know, I love what you said.

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You kind of take a step back,
maybe take a more holistic view

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of, you know, child, adolescent
human development and, and where

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do we go from there?
I really love this.

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Yeah, well, just say that as
well.

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There's some bad ways of going
in.

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Like, you know, a lot of systems
here that I work with, I think

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00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,320
rightly based on the evidence,
but wrongly based on change

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00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:34,600
narrative.
I've said we're all doing

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00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,360
explicit teaching right now.
Forms of explicit instruction

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00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,520
definitely are aligned in in the
evidence that are going to that

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00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,520
would suggest more students are
going to make more progress,

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particularly around literacy and
numeracy by using these

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00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,080
approaches.
But when you come in and say

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we're doing evidence based
teaching, you've got to do this.

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It's one of the few areas where
after saying we're doing

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00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,280
explicit teaching, you've got to
spend all this time telling

284
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,920
people what it's not.
And you get this whole aversion

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00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,120
in a lot of places.
And so I think what I recommend

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00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,000
is sort of like, look, it's not
about being proven right.

287
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,800
It's about being helpful to your
colleagues.

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00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,640
And so I would say spend like a
whole term just on learning, no

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00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,480
teaching.
What do we understand about

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00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,080
learning?
I ask teachers all the time, how

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00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,120
would you define learning?
They get totally stumped.

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00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,080
And then they'll say, oh,
learning is social, learning is

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00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,640
collaborative, learning is
energizing.

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00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,000
I'm like, no, no, what is
learning when you use this term

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00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,760
all the time?
I said, well, let me take you to

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00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,920
say the cognitive science.
It's not the only definition of

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00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,960
learning, but the small
occursion of definition would be

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00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,000
learning is a change in long
term memory.

299
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,800
OK, where would that long term
memory be stored?

300
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,840
OK, what do we mean by long term
memory?

301
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,120
Not just declarative knowledge,
but also procedural knowledge.

302
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,680
You're kicking a soccer ball in
the back of the net, playing

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00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,000
bark cello suites, having
automaticity of some number

304
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,440
facts.
All of these things are really

305
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,960
useful.
OK, what are some challenges

306
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,880
that you might find in helping
students build that long term

307
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,160
memory in attention?
Who has problems with attention?

308
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:02,960
Oh yeah, all the time.
Who has problems with getting

309
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,360
students to do hard thinking?
So what are the strategies that

310
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,360
might help?
And so sometimes you actually

311
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,400
end up talking about a whole set
of strategies like good

312
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,400
explanation work, the examples
of scaffolding, asking lots of

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00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:21,480
questions using non volunteers,
ThinkPad share, you know, asking

314
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,560
people to elaborate.
And people are like, yes, yes,

315
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,600
yes, these are good solutions to
these problems.

316
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,040
And then you say, oh, by the
way, that's what we kind of call

317
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,600
explicit teaching.
They go, oh, OK.

318
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,800
And so it's just being
thoughtful about where the

319
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,560
battle happens.
And I think people who are very

320
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,240
unsuccessful just want to be
right.

321
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,960
And people who are gracious and,
and and sit and just say, this

322
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,480
is so learnable.
And I think it's going to help

323
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,120
you enjoy your teaching better
and help you be more efficient,

324
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,560
more effective to solve problems
that are frustrating you in the

325
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,120
classroom.
To me, that's just a much more

326
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:53,640
effective approach.
Fantastic.

327
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:59,000
So why do you think, I mean,
there's so many professional

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00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,079
development kind of programs,
companies, things out there, Why

329
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,480
do you think a lot of those,
well at least in my opinion

330
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,680
anyway, a lot of these actually
failed to change classroom

331
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,680
practice in any kind of
meaningful ways.

332
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,839
Why?
Why do you think that is?

333
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,200
All sorts of things.
Maybe I'd break it down to one,

334
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,800
a lack of strategy on if this is
the solution, what was the

335
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,560
problem we were solving?
So a lot of busy head teachers,

336
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,000
a lot of busy directors of
teaching and learning deputies

337
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,240
who the problem they're really
solving is I've got these blocks

338
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,160
in the calendar with my team or
a whole staff and I need

339
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,920
something to fill that block.
I'm flat out, flat out and

340
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:46,920
exhausted running the school.
And rather than spending a day

341
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,320
or two going through the school
improvement plan, understanding

342
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,400
what the aspirations are, seeing
the gap between what our current

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00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,600
capabilities are and what we
would need to be doing and

344
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,440
needed to reach that like that,
that'd be first principles

345
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,480
thinking.
And it's multiple days of work.

346
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,480
And the people who are charged
with making these decisions do

347
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,120
not, in the way that those jobs
are currently structured, have

348
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,040
multiple days to do that type of
work.

349
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,760
So instead, what they often do
is they put their head up onto

350
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,440
Edu, Twitter or LinkedIn and
they look around and they say

351
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,160
what is a legitimate thing that
other people are doing?

352
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,080
It's very mimetic.
It's mimicry.

353
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,440
When I'm exhausted, I look up
and I say, what are people doing

354
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,840
and what you'll notice And
you've done this work for a

355
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,280
while, Kevin.
I know like over the last 10

356
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,200
years, you know, we won't name
any because I don't want to be

357
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,440
negative because not all of them
aren't based on evidence.

358
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,280
But you know, everyone's, let me
say a really good one, but I

359
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,080
want you all to do like Dylan
Williams, teacher learning

360
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,120
communities.
That's actually got a randomized

361
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,960
control trial saying it's
effectiveness.

362
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,640
But everyone was kind of hot for
that, you know, 2015, 2016,

363
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,440
2017.
But then it kind of like moves.

364
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,480
Oh no, we've done Dylan's.
What do you think you've done

365
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,600
Dylan's work?
Like you could spend a decade on

366
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,720
this and they kind of move to
something else and then

367
00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:59,880
something else and something
else.

368
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,840
And so firstly, I would say
there is a tendency for

369
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,400
exhausted and overloaded people
not to map professional learning

370
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,040
with the school improvement
strategy.

371
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,920
And to realize that professional
learning is really just about

372
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,240
building the skills or
capabilities needed for you to

373
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,040
close the delta between what
your people currently do and

374
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,120
what they need to be doing in
order to hit that outcome.

375
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,440
So first it's strategy and what
happens is you've got the school

376
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,680
improvement and then people just
go and grab a name, a product or

377
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,680
a a process that seems
legitimate because other people

378
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,920
are doing it and they try to jam
it in.

379
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,280
So they're not even clear on the
problem.

380
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,280
The second thing I would say is
that sometimes the program isn't

381
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,960
based on those best available
bets.

382
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,640
So, you know, Dylan's work, I
think is a great combination of

383
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,760
having the best available bets
is if you were going to spend

384
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,480
time learning something over two
or three years, that is likely

385
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,680
to improve the quality of
teaching and learning.

386
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,360
Formative assessment is probably
a really good bet.

387
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,160
There's other ones, but that's a
really good bet.

388
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,400
But often the watts are not the
most important watts.

389
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,880
And so people spend their time
trying to get better at things

390
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,360
that are unlikely to get them
unlocked in the classroom.

391
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:14,360
And then the third thing is the
mechanism for teacher change is

392
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:18,200
very weakly articulated.
So things like, oh, we're going

393
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,840
to do general coaching, Kevin,
OK.

394
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,640
And you're gonna sit down with
me and you're gonna pay for all

395
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,400
this time 'cause I'm not
teaching in that hour.

396
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,240
And you're not teaching.
You're just gonna ask me what do

397
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,280
I wanna work on, Simon, and
what?

398
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,720
And I choose something like
feedback.

399
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,960
Yeah, my classroom management's
poor.

400
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,640
My explanation is poor.
I'm not doing guided practice.

401
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,040
And I just pick something like
feedback.

402
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:41,640
And I spend a whole cycle of
coaching on something I've

403
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,840
chosen.
But it's actually, it's not the

404
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,680
next most important thing.
I mean, physios don't get better

405
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,080
this way.
OTS don't get better this way.

406
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,800
They actually say we have a
developmental sequence and some

407
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,320
we've been looking at what
you're working on.

408
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,480
You know, I actually want to
suggest that securing these

409
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,160
classroom routines in a positive
environment for learning is the

410
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,120
most important thing now and
then we want to move from that

411
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:04,880
to lessen clarity.
So I, I think on most of the

412
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,960
strategies don't have a vehicle
for what I've spent a lot of

413
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,120
time in the last decade doing,
which is thinking about

414
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,240
instructional habit change.
And instructional habit change

415
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,680
is at the core of, do you have a
set of mechanisms that Education

416
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:21,920
Endowment Foundation would call
them?

417
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,880
A set of mechanisms that might
help teachers build knowledge,

418
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,720
be motivated, understand the
technique, and embed it in

419
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,320
practice.
Because if the cycle of

420
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,280
professional learning happens
and it doesn't result in a

421
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,600
teacher embedding a new
instructional habit, based on

422
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,920
the evidence that's aligned with
where the school's heading, it's

423
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,360
very unlikely that you're either
going to have an impact or even

424
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:46,600
if they did a little bit of
change, they're just going to

425
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,240
return to default later on.
And so, you know, I, I think

426
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,200
there's gaps in strategy,
there's gaps in what people work

427
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,880
on.
So maybe why, what, and then

428
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,800
how.
And so for me, I've spent 10

429
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,440
years developing an approach
that's called teaching sprints.

430
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,520
It's used by thousands of
schools around the world and it

431
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,000
helps people work in small
cycles of evidence based change.

432
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,160
They learn about it, building
knowledge, Then they identify

433
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,840
very, very small instructional
habit to adjust.

434
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,760
They spend 2 to 4 weeks in their
classroom making explicit

435
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,360
changes to just a small part of
their teaching should feel like

436
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,800
smaller than they want to do,
smaller than they're motivated

437
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,040
to do.
And then they review that with

438
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,520
colleagues and work out how to
integrate it into their ongoing

439
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,560
repertoire.
And I can say that, Kevin,

440
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,400
because it's entirely free.
We'll say it's free and you get

441
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,920
what you pay for teaching
sprints.

442
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,600
And I think one of the things
that also is problematic is just

443
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,240
the amount of money in this
stuff.

444
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,320
And so people constantly are
changing, offering the new

445
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,760
offering on offering the online
platform, as though anyone's

446
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,480
going to log on to the damn
thing and fill out your form for

447
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,280
you.
There's always this new

448
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,080
proposition of some subscription
and some login because companies

449
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,800
are looking for some long tail
of revenue.

450
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,600
Even they know 80% plus of
teachers aren't logging in.

451
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,720
They're not doing any behavior
change.

452
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,000
But the director of teaching and
learning or head can feel like,

453
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,880
oh, we bought that thing.
And then they've often moved on

454
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,280
three years later and someone
else starts that cycle.

455
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,400
So for me, I think things that
are mostly free or adaptable,

456
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,560
things that you build that could
like Dylan Williams, teach the

457
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,040
learning communities, you could
run those for 10 years.

458
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,920
You don't have to keep changing
the structure, but you could

459
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,800
like with teaching sprints,
adapt.

460
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,360
What's the evidence based
practices you could use within

461
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:40,040
it?
So that is a example.

462
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:42,880
It might sound like a pitch
Kevin, but it's also just a it's

463
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,040
free.
So I've got nothing riding on it

464
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,520
other than it's so interesting
to me the way that people get

465
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,800
caught in long term financial
obligations on things that

466
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,640
aren't working where there's
what they need is a day or two

467
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,200
to work out what do we need?
What's the evidence that's

468
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,440
already free and available
through places like evidence

469
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,520
Endowment Foundation or other
simple ways of people

470
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,800
summarizing it online.
And then just pick a vehicle

471
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,240
teacher learning communities,
teaching sprints, gym nights,

472
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,920
impact cycle, something like
that.

473
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,280
If you're doing a one-on-one,
don't do general coaching, do

474
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,040
instructional coaching with a
good structure.

475
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,360
And then just help people get
better at one thing every term.

476
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,320
Do that three to four times a
year and staff get much, much

477
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,320
better.
And look, I can, I, I 100% echo

478
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,680
your, your comments there.
Just at the beginning of this

479
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,520
year, we started with Dylan
Williams and, and teacher

480
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,720
learning communities focusing on
embedding formative assessment.

481
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,320
And, you know, having that staff
together in, in, you know, sort

482
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,480
of groups of 9 or 10 working on,
like you said, those very small

483
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,720
specific things on sort of two
to four week cycles coming back,

484
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,360
you know, observing each other,
reflecting.

485
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,600
It's really, really powerful.
And, and certainly I've noticed

486
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,320
a big difference compared to
other things we've tried in the

487
00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:59,800
past.
And it's, you know, such a

488
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,520
crowded space of, like you said,
platforms and programs and, you

489
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,760
know, companies trying to sell
things that, you know, the, the

490
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,320
simple things are usually
better.

491
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,480
Yeah, and if you've got the
time, like it's pretty simple.

492
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,760
It's like you want to work
collaboratively, not

493
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,080
individually, because individual
coaching never scales to the

494
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:19,880
majority of the school in my
view.

495
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,840
And normally the people who opt
into it aren't the ones that you

496
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,920
need to improve their practice.
So number one, you must have a

497
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,240
group based approach where
everyone is involved. 2 Most

498
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,440
teachers will only improve on at
most one thing per term.

499
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,680
Depending which system in you,
you've got 3 to 4 terms a year.

500
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,440
So assume teachers will get
better at three to four things a

501
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,800
year if everything goes well.
Well, well, If they're only

502
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,360
going to get better at three to
four things, choose very wisely

503
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:49,400
what they're getting better at.
So you know, elements like

504
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,800
formative assessment or my dear
friend Tom Sherrington's done a

505
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,400
great job of unpacking
Rosenstein's principles.

506
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,520
Or a colleague here in
Australia, Ollie Lovell's done a

507
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,960
great job of unpacking John
Sweller's work on cognitive

508
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,440
load.
Greg Ashman's done a great book

509
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,560
on that as well.
Like you could do worse than

510
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,640
unpacking some of those key
pieces of rigorous kind of

511
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,800
synthesis and, and using that as
the focus.

512
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:16,640
And then it's just about, as you
said, helping people move

513
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,760
through cycles, not looking for
what are we doing now, but we're

514
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,240
doing what we do every term.
We pick something that we think

515
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,840
will solve a problem.
We give ourselves time and space

516
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,560
to integrate that within our
craft.

517
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,240
We talk with colleagues about
how it's so hard to change

518
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,880
certain habits.
We try to make it so that we

519
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,920
can't stop doing it in the
future.

520
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,960
And that's about all we can ask
of people in any term.

521
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,240
And if you do that over three
years, you're going to get

522
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,560
better at 9 to 10 things.
I'll tell you if you've got

523
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,600
better at 9 to 10 things from
Dylan list or Roses shines list

524
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,880
or swirl as guidance on
cognitive load, you would be a

525
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,280
dramatically better teacher.
That'd be that's my my dad.

526
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,040
And then just pull together the
things that are mostly free or

527
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,760
very low cost and own the
process rather than to sign up

528
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,080
on an external process that
everyone knows.

529
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,280
Oh, we'll do this for a few
years and then we'll do

530
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,240
something else.
So.

531
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,200
What might your advice for
school leaders be in terms of

532
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:16,760
balancing accountability with
trust when you're trying to

533
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,760
improve teacher quality and
helping, guiding, pushing

534
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,240
teachers through this
improvement process trying to.

535
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,280
Sort of get at the question a
little bit.

536
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:32,000
So let's let's start with trust.
What what is the leader being

537
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,080
asked to trust about the teacher
or teachers practice I think

538
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,440
for?
You know, I think what we would

539
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,160
hope, whether it's parents or
administrators or leaders, that

540
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,080
that teachers innately would
want to get better, would want

541
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,800
to approve, improve their own
practice or are interested in in

542
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,680
being better teachers overall.
And we want to trust teachers to

543
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,760
do that.
We don't want to dictate things

544
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,640
too much.
We don't want to say you must do

545
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,800
this and you must do that.
And we're going to do this in

546
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,360
this way exactly.
You want to, you know, give some

547
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:07,000
ownership over to the teacher
and say, you know, you're in a

548
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,280
position to, you know, be able
to reflect and and know what you

549
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,960
need in your professional
practice moving forward.

550
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,400
But not everyone's in the same
boat.

551
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:16,800
OK.
Yeah.

552
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,120
So if it's within that, because
because there's different areas

553
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:22,640
of accountability and trust.
So normally I'd say trust and

554
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,760
verify.
And then once you verify, you

555
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,560
trust more.
Trust isn't just given.

556
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,640
It's a a set of loops where you
have a certain trust and a

557
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,440
certain thing.
And then if it happens, then you

558
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,200
increase that trust and you
normally increase the distance

559
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,320
again before you have any sort
of accountability loop.

560
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,800
And that builds up.
And then if you can get hiring

561
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,560
well done well and you have a
culture of that, then

562
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,000
increasingly you're hiring for
people who understand the

563
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,800
culture that you run.
And if they, you know, stepped

564
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,560
away from some of those norms,
it would be held up pretty

565
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,480
quickly.
So trusting that they're

566
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,560
teaching from the curriculum.
I know that seems small, but we

567
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,320
hear problems every week where
someones teaching something

568
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,200
that's other that trusting that
if they're shared agreements and

569
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,720
norms within that school around
what might be covered or how

570
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,680
that that those shared
agreements and norms are being

571
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,480
fulfilled.
Because otherwise, you know, as

572
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,000
you know, and you get to high
schools, students complain and

573
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,840
teachers complain.
You know, why is, you know,

574
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,160
certain people getting this rich
kind of learning and other

575
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,320
people getting something
different.

576
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,160
You're talking then about
something that's particular,

577
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,640
which is trust that they're
getting better.

578
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,720
And here I just know humans too
much and I love humans too much

579
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,520
to put a burden on them to say
that somehow, because you're a

580
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,520
professional who wants to get
better, then you will probably

581
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,480
structure your time and limit
limited energy to get better.

582
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,680
Like a lot of people say, want
to read more and they buy books

583
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,600
that sit on the night stand, but
they don't actually actually

584
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,760
read anymore once they get out
of holidays.

585
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,800
Why?
Because it's very hard to

586
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,280
individually make that change.
But if you join a book club, you

587
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,360
go, could we do a book club?
And everyone brings their own

588
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,480
book, Kevin.
They choose what that'll be more

589
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,200
motivating.
Yeah, it might be at the front

590
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,760
end, but then it's a really
boring conversation because

591
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,240
we're not talking about the same
thing.

592
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,480
And so sometimes it's worth
reading a book that's not your

593
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,040
number one choice, but it's
still interesting because it's

594
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,880
the collaborative thing that I
know I'm going to book club in a

595
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,240
week.
So I'm going to read a chapter

596
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,800
or two or I know I'm going to
this because it's actually the

597
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,800
peer effects that are deeply
motivating.

598
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,440
And actually something that I
may not have necessarily said

599
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,600
was that my number one, when I
got into it, I still found a

600
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,600
huge amount of depth and things
of interest.

601
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:39,040
So my view is, yes, assume that
teachers like I was like you are

602
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,000
like my wife, like my mother,
like my mother-in-law, my sis,

603
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,920
two sister in laws think they're
wonderful humans and also expect

604
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,440
that they're busy and
overwhelmed and that the first

605
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,040
thing that they will let go is
practice improvement.

606
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,040
And it's actually a beautiful
thing because what they could do

607
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,000
is not do some of their job
today in order to do practice

608
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,600
improvement, not mark something,
not run something, not be

609
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,200
available at lunchtime.
But what they constantly do is

610
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,480
that they do their job rather
than carving out time to get

611
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,440
better at their job.
And it actually comes from a

612
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,040
beautiful intent.
And today, if you do your job

613
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,440
and don't carve out time to get
better at your job, it doesn't

614
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,280
matter.
You do that this week, doesn't

615
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,000
matter.
You do that this month, do that

616
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,800
this term, that's OK.
But if you do that over and over

617
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,760
again, what you get is a
premature plateau.

618
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,200
And so for me, Kevin, it's
actually about saying as an

619
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,760
organization, we do not put the
burden of getting better on you

620
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,240
as an individual.
We do not say to you, you should

621
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,040
be self motivated and find a
time to do this.

622
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,800
No, we say we care about you.
And one of our commitments to

623
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,680
you is that whenever you leave
us in one year, three years, 10

624
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,360
years, we want to have given you
an opportunity to have got

625
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,920
better at least one part of your
craft every term, multiple parts

626
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,720
of that craft every year.
And when you leave us in a year,

627
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,000
three, 5-10 years, we want you
to look back and say, I'm a

628
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,560
dramatically better
practitioner.

629
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,600
Not because I was self motivated
all the time to carve out time

630
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,720
to do it, but I just turned up
and did my job.

631
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,080
And when I turned up and did my
job, like with teaching

632
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,240
experience or Dylan's work or
many, many others, there's a

633
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,440
slot every term where I've got
some time to do some learning

634
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,520
and work out what is it is I
want to actually try to get

635
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,920
better at.
There's a particular period when

636
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,240
me and others are not just doing
our job, we're dramatically

637
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,560
trying to make an adjustment.
I shouldn't say dramatically.

638
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,560
We are intentionally making an
adjustment in a very small part

639
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,120
of our craft and everyone's
doing it the same.

640
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,880
So we're like, yeah, we're flat
out, it's busy.

641
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,240
But you know, we're all doing
our Sprint, we're all doing our,

642
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,920
our cycle of improvement, we're
all doing our impact cycle.

643
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,440
And then we talk about, oh, that
didn't work.

644
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,080
I got halfway through the
Sprint.

645
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,280
To be honest, I totally dropped
it.

646
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,560
I just couldn't stand the
practice.

647
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,320
Oh, what was that about?
Oh, the students were responding

648
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,760
so poorly to my cold calling.
I hated it.

649
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,400
Really ruined the front end of
my lesson.

650
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,240
OK, let's talk about that.
So my, my view, I suppose, is

651
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,240
it's not about accountability.
It's about culture and

652
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,200
structures and rhythms and
routines and making sure they're

653
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,280
set time and a simple process to
help people get better.

654
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,200
And then as far as choice, I
mean, my, my, my book club

655
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,240
analogy is there because I, I do
wherever possible, say we should

656
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,680
get as close as possible to
doing something similar.

657
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,000
And if you can't choose the same
book, at least choose the same

658
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,760
genre, right?
And so, you know, you may not

659
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,400
all want to work on the same
questioning technique, but it'd

660
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,040
be great if we're working on
questioning or the same

661
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,160
formative assessment medium,
medium cycle or the same

662
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,840
retrieval practice area,
something that we're working on

663
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,040
because we've just got more
things to discuss.

664
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,200
And lastly, in secondaries, at
least, I see pedagogical change

665
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,880
as a collective action problem.
And so that mean what do you,

666
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,120
what do you teach mate?
My.

667
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,080
Teaching area math and PE.
Fantastic, great combo.

668
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,880
So if you if you know, if they
get you in the morning and

669
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,600
they're with Mr. Fulbrook in the
morning and they're getting a

670
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,280
maths lesson and your high
demand, great classroom routine,

671
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,080
good quality retrieval practice
question at the early part with

672
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,679
the hinge question of multiple
choice that makes them think

673
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,120
they're pulling out a mini
whiteboard or doing some

674
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,840
individual thinking before
moving to a structured pair

675
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,280
share.
You don't take volunteers.

676
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,800
They know you're going to come
and ask what were you thinking?

677
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,600
A good answer comes up and you
build on that and you probe and

678
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,719
it's just a really high demand
safe environment of cognitive

679
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,920
activation.
And then they look at their

680
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,239
timetime and they go, oh great,
we got breaks here next.

681
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,360
And they turn up and straight
away they know they can sit

682
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,600
down.
I only take volunteers when I

683
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,960
ask for pair discussion.
You don't have to think first.

684
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,239
You can just turn to someone
nearby.

685
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,120
There's this whole thing where
it's a pedagogical whiplash for

686
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,400
the student, but also you get
this huge learning yield out of

687
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:52,800
the strategies that you're
using.

688
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,000
And then they just kind of come
down in my classroom and

689
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,680
actually in secondaries, if
everyone can work on a set of

690
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,200
things like what you're doing in
the 1st 10 or 15 minutes of the

691
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,400
lesson, especially for me,
increasingly devices down a

692
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,520
pedagogy of encounter, good
quality questioning, everyone

693
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,080
thinking, using that back and
forth dialogue for the teacher

694
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,080
to work out where she and he's
going next.

695
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,680
If that all happens, someone,
the kids all start going, the

696
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,000
teachers have all gone crazy.
But secondly, you get this huge

697
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,800
uplift because changing practice
isn't just about what teachers

698
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,360
do.
It's also how students respond

699
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,040
in the classroom routine.
And if students are resisting

700
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,320
that change, it's very hard for
the teacher to carry on the

701
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,640
practice.
But if lots of teachers make

702
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,800
changes, particularly things
like questioning, checking for

703
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,800
understanding, opportunities to
respond, and it happens across

704
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,960
the board, maybe with different
techniques and in different

705
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,040
styles, PE versus math versus
science versus English history,

706
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,640
there's this whole uplift and
everyone's job gets easier in

707
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,840
making that change.
And so I would just say a lot of

708
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,320
the time, motivation comes from
making progress and feeling like

709
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,960
you're collectively part of
something.

710
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,880
And I reckon we've overplayed
the hand if oh, I've only

711
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,360
teachers had choice and we trust
them, man.

712
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,240
I've had choice on the books I
read or the exercise programs.

713
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:06,760
And you can trust me.
I don't do it because I'm

714
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,960
untrustworthy.
I don't do it because I'm busy

715
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,240
and everything else that's
urgent has squeezed out that

716
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,320
activity.
And so for me, it's about

717
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,040
structures, rhythms, cadence,
culture, and it's not really

718
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,320
about professionalism and
effort.

719
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:23,680
I don't know.
How does that lamb with you?

720
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,520
Yeah.
Amazing, you know that, you know

721
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,920
that that just connects so well
with, you know, what you see in

722
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,920
schools every day and and you
know what you hear teachers

723
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,080
saying and and what you see in
classrooms and you know, I think

724
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:42,200
a lot of it get missed.
It gets missed a lot that you

725
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,400
talk spoke about that
pedagogical whiplash, you know,

726
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,280
and you know, it's not very
often where educators or

727
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,520
administrators would walk a day
in the shoes of a student to

728
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,920
experience that themselves
because that teacher just

729
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,080
experiences their own classroom
and make some assumptions about,

730
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,560
you know, that child's
experience in other classrooms

731
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,240
or other subjects and and so
forth.

732
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:09,600
And that can be an eye opening.
As such, an eye opening

733
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,120
experience for teachers is to to
put themselves in during the

734
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,200
entirety of a day to experience
what students experience in that

735
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,720
way.
Now don't get me wrong, I'd love

736
00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:24,400
to see authenticity differences
that some teachers are a little

737
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,200
bit more charismatic and over
the top than some teachers, you

738
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,240
know, ask their questions.
Actually, you know, sometimes

739
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,280
sitting down at the front.
I'm OK if some teachers are

740
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,360
scribbling on boards and other
people are using some slides.

741
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,040
But the level of cognitive
activation and demand that there

742
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,160
would be a set of practices that
would turn up very regularly as

743
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,400
indicators that, you know, as my
friend Tom Sherrington says,

744
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,160
like are all students paying
attention?

745
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,920
Are all students thinking?
Are all students getting a

746
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,560
chance to retrieve?
Are all students practicing that

747
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,480
Tier 2 and Tier 3 vocabulary?
Are all students getting seen

748
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,960
and honored in the classroom
because you will say their name

749
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,800
and you will be interested in
what they say and it's safe.

750
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,400
Are all students getting that
chance to build their oracy,

751
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,960
which we know is going to be so
much more important than other

752
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,440
sort of technical skills?
In an age where increasingly

753
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,880
last time I'm a huge fan of
everyone learning to write and

754
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,960
to think and to be numerate, we
know when they get out on the

755
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:26,960
other side, increasingly AI
enabled workforces will do some

756
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,840
of that technical heavy lifting
for them.

757
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,520
But that ability to communicate,
to have a compelling way to to

758
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,800
speak and to draw on your
knowledge, well, who's getting

759
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,040
practice for that in the
classroom?

760
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,000
Is it just the seven or eight
kids who put their hand up?

761
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,320
Is there a gender difference in
that?

762
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,040
Is there a racial difference in
that?

763
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,640
And so, you know, when we talk
about high engagement, high

764
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,640
cognitive activation, inclusive
kind of classrooms, I want to

765
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,400
see lots of consistency of
certain practices that would

766
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,200
unlock certain learning
mechanisms.

767
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,040
But I love the way that
different teachers with

768
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,280
different energy and pacing and
accents and body movement and

769
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:06,640
other things would do it in
their own way.

770
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,760
So I just, you know, I just want
to say that I'm not saying about

771
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:17,040
codification to reduce positive
personality variability, but I

772
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,760
want to remove variability
around demand and cognitive

773
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,560
activation.
And I'm OK mate.

774
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,880
If you get there differently to
me that you better have a way of

775
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,760
justifying and articulating how
it is that you're getting all

776
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,160
students to be doing hard
thinking and sharing and

777
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,680
developing.
And so that's that kind of loops

778
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:35,880
us back to the beginning around
it.

779
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:40,000
It's the collective
accountability to talk about why

780
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,320
did I do what I did in the way I
did.

781
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,840
And you need to be able to
articulate that.

782
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,800
And it might differ from others
that you can't just say, trust

783
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,920
me, I'm a teacher.
I was trained a while ago and

784
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,520
you know, I haven't have had no
complaints.

785
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,760
Now you have to.
Why is it that you set up your

786
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,600
lessons the way you do?
Why is it that you allow

787
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,040
everyone to start on technology
and you say, is everyone ready

788
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,200
just to carry on with what we're
doing before?

789
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,480
Like explain that from what you
understand about learning and

790
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,320
human development.
And I'm open to it.

791
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,080
But if you can't, you just want
me to trust you because.

792
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,720
You're a trained teacher, then
I'd just say I'm really glad I

793
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:18,040
don't turn up to hospitals that
run that way, OK?

794
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:20,480
Couple of quick questions to
wrap things up, Simon about a.

795
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,520
Couple of minutes.
Go for it, yeah.

796
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,600
A book that has most influenced
your thinking.

797
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,480
There's lots here.
I'm a systems guy, so I would

798
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,960
say that Richard Elmore, school
reform from the inside out, the

799
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,840
late Richard Elmore from Harvard
would probably be an absolute

800
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,880
killer.
And just that core idea that

801
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,280
even if we're talking about
large scale change, we've got to

802
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,960
get right down to the
instructional core content,

803
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,680
student, teacher, and everything
we're trying to do in school

804
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,280
leadership or policy and change
has to have a theory about why

805
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,880
it would change there.
And he says things like no

806
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,320
amount of external
accountability can make up from

807
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:57,920
a lack of internal
accountability.

808
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,800
So it's all these internal kind
of processes.

809
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,080
Yeah.
So that's a classic school

810
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,520
reform from the inside out.
Great.

811
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,160
A daily or weekly habit that
keeps you effective this is.

812
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,560
Newer, I used to see my body as
just a vehicle that carried my

813
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,840
brain around.
And I've always enjoyed sport

814
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,200
and other things.
But increasingly I see the

815
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,240
connection between movement and
my own cognitive activation and

816
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:27,640
my own emotional regulation.
And I've increasingly

817
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,440
prioritized some type of
exercise or movement.

818
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,520
I don't have some amazing
exercise routine, but even if

819
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,400
it's simpler of like going for a
walk or going for a run, if I'm

820
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,280
in a hotel, going to the gym
doing something.

821
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,640
And I've just found that I used
to always say I just got to get

822
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,000
into the day, get into some
work, get the kids out the door,

823
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,480
whatever else.
And I've just found that that

824
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:55,680
basic idea of prioritizing
movement and exercise early, I

825
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,960
find has made a big impact on
like this time of the day for

826
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:01,080
me.
It's the afternoon.

827
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,640
I'm much, much more cognitively
switched on.

828
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,720
And I find that I like people
more.

829
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,760
Very good.
A leadership mistake that you

830
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,960
still think about.
A whole range of things that

831
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,800
come up.
Obviously my context is slightly

832
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,840
different, but I think probably
the things that come up for me

833
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:26,920
early days would be how to best
manage really talented people

834
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:32,240
coming up and through.
And probably being aware that

835
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:35,040
sometimes when you're mentoring
and bringing people through,

836
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,840
they can be better than you at
things earlier than you think.

837
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:44,320
And I think that sometimes I
thought that I was on the chess

838
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,960
board and that I was a bit
intimidated sometimes when

839
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,320
people are coming up and through
and I had to realize that I was

840
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,600
actually playing chess.
And if I had a pawn that made it

841
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,160
to the other end, I just got
another queen and that was good.

842
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:01,080
So I think sometimes out of a
lack of real security, I didn't

843
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,320
manage the highest performers I
had well enough to bring them up

844
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,240
to the table and the true sense
of that.

845
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,720
And therefore you don't keep
them, they go on elsewhere.

846
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:16,440
So I think that sort of
self-awareness of not, not

847
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,440
slowing up other people who are
coming through, spotting that

848
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,200
talent, moving them through and
making sure you move them in the

849
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,280
types of positions that they
think, oh, I'm, I want to stay

850
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,720
and keep growing here as opposed
to perhaps feeling like I'm

851
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:32,560
going to go off and go somewhere
else now.

852
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,080
So I definitely feel that is
something I've thought about,

853
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,480
particularly when you think
about certain talent that you

854
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,160
should have stayed with you
around you and that your

855
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,960
mismanagement of that talent
probably meant that you didn't

856
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,120
get them working with you for
that next season of, of of

857
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,320
leadership.
All right, and finally, one

858
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,920
piece of advice for aspiring
school leaders.

859
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,880
Human.
Human human as everyone's

860
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,840
talking about how you can
outsource increasing amount of

861
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,640
the left brain type processes.
If I use that, the analytic, the

862
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:08,960
writing, the, the, the data
crunching, the human skills are

863
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,200
where the big premium is, Kevin.
And so I would be investing

864
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,880
seriously in my what I call my
people leader tool kit.

865
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,360
And this means thinking
seriously.

866
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,800
You mentioned trust before, but
what are your systematic

867
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,160
strategies for building trust or
repairing trust?

868
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,920
What are your systematic
strategies for seriously getting

869
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,760
good at active listening?
What are your strategies for

870
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,320
avoiding taking on people's
problems but helping build

871
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,680
agency in a conversation for
them to own it?

872
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,400
What are your strategies for
dealing with intergenerational

873
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,640
teams or multi generational
teams where people like us got

874
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:52,080
into education as a full contact
sport and we assumed it was

875
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,760
going to ask everything of us?
And you're now managing people

876
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,440
with a very different social
contract about what they

877
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,400
understand teaching is and
should be.

878
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,120
And so I think that people
Leadership toolkit is

879
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,560
increasingly the differentiator
for up and coming aspiring

880
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,320
leaders.
And whilst, of course, I'm a big

881
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,680
fan of getting your head around
research and practice and other

882
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,080
things, I would say
systematically building up that

883
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,480
toolkit because it it's
important for your work with

884
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,960
students, it's critical for your
work with your own team.

885
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,360
It's increasingly important for
your work with parents that

886
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,840
you're able to self regulate, be
self aware, and that your

887
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:35,320
interactions and the signals
that you send to other humans

888
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,360
are very intentional and that
helped make them feel

889
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,480
psychologically safe.
You know, well listened to seen

890
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,080
because I think increasingly, as
many, many more people are,

891
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,280
let's be faced face it, more
dysregulated, as many people are

892
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,720
pulling back from the full
commitment that they might have

893
00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:58,800
given our institutions before.
And as the teacher shortage

894
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,440
means that people have got other
options.

895
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,480
I think your people leadership
is the is the key differentiator

896
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,840
and I would systematically work
on it and I would it's really

897
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,560
hard, but actually ask for
feedback about it.

898
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:12,840
Fantastic.
Well, that sounds like a great

899
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,160
place to to leave things.
So thanks so much Simon.

900
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:16,560
I really enjoyed our our chat
today.

901
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,160
Really appreciate your time.
Thanks Kevin.

902
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,080
Great to connect talk about
these ideas.

903
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,800
I've really enjoyed the
conversation.

904
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,760
Take care.
Thanks so much for listening to

905
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,320
the episode.
If you enjoyed this

906
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,600
conversation, don't forget to
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907
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,960
cetera.
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908
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,120
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909
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,360
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910
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,160
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