Simon Lightman

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Welcome to the Leadership
Passport.

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I'd like to welcome my special
guest today, Mr. Simon Lightman.

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Simon is an educator, writer and
systems thinker whose work

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explores how learning can
respond to the moral, ecological

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and philosophical challenges of
the 21st century, is Co Chair of

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SEED Sustainability and
Environmental Education and

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founder of the City of London
Youth Natural Environment Board.

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A youth LED initiative
influencing sustainability

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leadership across the city's
schools is what connects

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philosophy, policy and practice,
helping educators and young

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people design learning systems
that are ethical, resilient, and

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future ready.
Simon's writing and public

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scholarship focus on
transformation, flourishing, and

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the renewal of education as a
moral and civic practice.

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Welcome, Simon.
I mean, it's always slightly

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daunting when you hear your,
your sort of bio read out in,

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in, in that way.
I always have a little bit of

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imposter syndrome, you know, I
think that's a healthy thing to

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have.
But it's an absolute pleasure to

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to be here, Kevin, and have the
opportunity to to speak with you

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today.
That was great to have you.

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Thanks so much for your time.
Now you were you were sharing,

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we were having a bit of a
conversation before, but you

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shared with me before.
You're an old school hip hop fan

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who still raps a bit on the side
much the embarrassment of your

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daughter.
Tell me a bit more about that.

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I mean, I don't know if there's
that much more to say.

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Like lots of 42 year old men, I
am a teach, I'm a, I'm a

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teacher.
But in in my heart, I'm a

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frustrated, you know, music
star, rock star, hip hop star.

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Now I like all types of music.
I've always been very much

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inspired by music in every form.
But I've always enjoyed hip hop,

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old school hip hop and actually
a few years ago and I've always

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done some writing and, and
played, you know, I play guitar

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and I write some songs.
And then a few years ago I said

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to myself, you know, you know
what?

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I'm just going to follow one of
my childhood dreams and start to

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record a few tracks and bits and
pieces.

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Unfortunately, as is often the
case with work and family life,

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etcetera, etcetera, I don't
necessarily have as much time as

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possible to, to actually do this
stuff.

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But occasionally I do go down to
my little bedroom studio and,

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and do some recording.
And then my teenage daughter is

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kind of horrified at the sound
of her, you know, middle-aged

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dad rapping.
You know, you've got to, you've

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got to live your dreams, man.
I think that's important.

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Yeah, and and that's your job as
a dad as well.

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That's an important part of the
role is embarrassing your

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children.
So it's it can't be overlooked.

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I, I, I think this is, this is
an important part of the, of, of

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the, of the fatherly role.
Definitely, definitely.

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And not taking yourself at not a
more serious point, not taking

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yourself too seriously and
demonstrating to your kids that

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you can inhabit different
personalities.

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You know, I think part of my
own, you know, leadership

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journey has been learning how to
inhabit the different elements

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of myself and see those things
not as mutually exclusive, but

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as part of who I am.
And I try to bring that to, to,

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to everything I do actually,
that it's OK to be to be

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yourself, that you don't need
to, to put on a, a certain

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persona in order to inhabit
certain spaces.

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And you know, that is, that's
something that I've learned at

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great cost.
And you know, for what it's

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worth, that little bit of wisdom
is something I'd like to pass on

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to my own kids and, and all the
young people that I, that I work

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with, actually.
Well, that's a, that's probably

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a really good segue then into
talking about some of your work.

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And you know, you describe some
of your work as exploring the

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distinction between instrumental
and transformative leadership.

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So I wonder if you could start
by sort of unpacking that a

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little bit, what that means and
and why you believe that

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distinction matters so much in
schools today?

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Yeah, No, that's a great, that's
a great question.

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I mean, my, my focus is very
much on, on leadership within

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the education sector.
But I do believe that the

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underlying principles apply to,
to leadership more generally.

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And that distinction between
instrumental and transformative

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leadership is about the deeper
question of, of purpose, I

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guess.
I mean, it's about the question

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of what is leadership ultimately
for?

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If we talk about from an
education point of view, it's

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about this idea that, yeah,
there's two fundamentally

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different views of education as
there is of many different areas

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of, of human endeavour.
You know, 1 is about education

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as, you know, preparing for
people for the way the world is,

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and the other is about forming
people for the way the world

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ought to be.
So, you know, the 1st is just

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about us adapting, existing
within the existing systems,

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whereas the second is, is more
about, it's about

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transformation, it's about
cultivating the imagination, the

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discernment, and you know, not
to get too heavy on it, but the

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moral courage to renew those
systems.

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To my mind, linking back to your
question, instrumental

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leadership is, is about that
first view.

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It's all about leadership which
privatises, you know,

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efficiency, clients,
performance.

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It's about sustaining the
present.

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I, I hate to say it, sustaining
the status quo.

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Whereas transformative
leadership is, is about that

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second paragraph.
It's about leadership that is

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about about purpose, about moral
intention.

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It's about leadership, which is
about, you know, who are we

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becoming through our own
leadership and who are we

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helping others to become through
that leadership?

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And what type of ethical and,
and I guess relational

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atmosphere are we are we trying
to control, you know, create?

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I mean, in, in my own life
that's come to play in in

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various ways.
I've seen it where with my work

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with the City of London Youth
Natural Environment Board, with

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my work as the Co chair of SEED,
where transformative leaders

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start to see it as a question of
of how do I put this, I guess of

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renewal rather than just
delivery.

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Look, one of the major issues
you and I both work in in

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education is that schools are
often seen as factories of

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attainment.
But to my mind they are much

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more than that.
That is 1 aspect of them.

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But they're also living systems
and all living systems are

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capable of change and evolution.
So a transformative leader is

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someone who, who holds that
wider view.

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They, they're someone who
understands the, the decisions

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they make on, on policies, on
structures, you know, the

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conversations they have.
We like to reinforce the way the

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world is or will contribute to
helping us to expand our

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capacity to imagine the world
differently.

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I guess that's a very, very long
answer, but I hope that kind of

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captures a little bit of of what
I what I think on that.

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Yeah.
And I think we'll we'll get into

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that a little bit later in terms
of the the practicalities and

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realities of that because like
you said, we both both work in

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education and we work in busy
schools.

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There's a lot lot happening and
you know, how does that really

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where the rubber hits the road,
What, what does that look like?

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But wondering before we kind of
get to that, what experiences or

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observations in your own career
have most shaped your thinking

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about this?
OK, so.

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Comes to mind, yeah.
Yeah.

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I mean, I often come back to
this idea.

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I think of education, I think of
leadership within education,

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leadership more widely as how do
we understand questions of, of

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being questions of what we are
becoming rather than what we're

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just doing.
So, you know, I don't want to

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get too heavy into the
philosophy of this, but it's

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about ontological questions.
It's about the stance we take

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towards, towards others and, and
towards the, towards the world.

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You know, earlier on in, in, in,
in my career, I was, I tried to

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ape others, you know, like many
of us do we, we look for the

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sort of indicators around us and
we try to, you know, copy what

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we think is the, the best way to
do things.

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And I was really focused on, on
systems, on strategies, and I

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really thought that innovation
was all about clever design.

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You know, I still, you know,
clever design's still important,

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but actually, you know, through
the civic work I've done and

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particularly through, through
the youth LED work, I've, I've

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realised that actually it's more
about how we are present, right?

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It's about how we show up.
So the best leaders from, to my

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mind, are the ones who they
create trust, right?

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And they create trust because
they're coherent and their

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integrity and their, their
manner of being just radiates

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through the school and they
understand that their, their

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power doesn't come from
position.

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It comes from relation.
So, you know, when you come

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across that type of leader, who
is, who's grounded, who's self

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aware, who, you know, going back
to the thing I was saying

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earlier, who's happy with the
different facets of their

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personality and isn't, you know,
not to be put to belong to a

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point on it, but isn't carrying
heirs and graces.

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They're not trying to just enact
control in order to maintain the

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system.
They're trying to look around

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themselves and see like, what
can I do to help everything

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become the best it can be?
And that's a very different way

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to approach things.
So how do you then kind of

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reconcile that tension or
friction between accountability

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measures like grades and
inspections and performance

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metrics, and that's some of that
slower, deeper work around

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transformation?
That's, that's a good question.

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And it's I, I honestly haven't,
it's one that I, I struggle

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with, but a lot of the work I'm
trying to do, especially on

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policy stuff, which I'll come to
later, is trying to make sense

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of that and, and position
through a different way of that.

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So, yeah, first of all, it's
important that accountability is

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not, is not the enemy, right?
You know, grades, inspections,

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you know, performance, etcetera,
that that's all necessary.

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It's, it's the way it's shaped,
it's the form it takes.

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So the problem is not
accountability itself, but

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accountability systems, which
are all about, you know,

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optimising things rather than
actually forming things.

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And I think this goes actually
to, to a little bit of a, a

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deeper issue.
So education has imported a lot

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of the managerial logic from
other industries.

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You know, although that's not
necessarily all bad.

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You know, a lot of schools
etcetera are businesses.

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They have to generate, you know,
value, they have to generate

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profit or they have to generate,
you know, money in order to

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maintain themselves, etcetera,
etcetera.

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Or even state schools still need
to generate, you know, value for

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the state and value bang for the
buck for the taxpayer, etcetera.

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But the the issue is they just
like imported this managerial

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logic, which is all about output
rather than relationship.

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And I don't think that's fit for
purpose because when you have

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like accountability, that's all
about fear and, and, and

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competition, it just creates a
culture of compliance.

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Whereas education, and I would
say all industries actually,

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they, what they really require
is like trust and, and talking

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dialogue, right?
So I guess coming back to

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schools in a real practical
sense, so we don't lose the

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thread of your question, it's
about what actually counts as

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evidence here, right?
So, you know, the data matters,

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grades matter, inspection
outcomes really do matter, The

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performance indicators are
really important.

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We need good data.
We need to be able to illuminate

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all those different points,
etcetera.

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But we also need different types
of testimony.

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We need a space to allow for
stories of learning, reflective

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portfolios, actual acted upon
feedback from students in the

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community evidencing that
collaboration.

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I guess it's about that kind of
shifting culture.

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So often what I've talked about
is this idea of narrative

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evaluation.
So looking not just at, you

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know, what's been achieved tick
box, but what has been learnt,

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what capacities have grown, what
new possibilities have opened

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up.
So, yeah, I mean, I guess that

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that's what it comes down to for
me, really.

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Yeah.
So when you're talking there

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about really, I guess in some
ways more complex way of looking

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things, more nuanced way.
And we were talking before

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about, you know, shrinking
attention spans and how people

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consume information or music or
whatever it is these days, what

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that looks like.
So how do you balance those two

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things?
How do you embrace that kind of

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complexity and new ways of doing
things without losing any

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clarity, especially when people,
communities, whoever it might

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be, they would, they want a
sound bite, they want something

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simple that's easy to consume
and something to be really

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nicely wrapped up.
Yeah, I mean, it's really hard,

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isn't it?
Because people want clarity, but

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good leaders are able to provide
clarity whilst also holding on

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to complexity, right.
So yes, people want clarity, but

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it's not the role of leaders, to
my mind, to to simplify reality,

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but to create the space to make
that complexity liveable.

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So there's lots of different,
you know, competing stuff going

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on in, in any school.
You know, there's people who are

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striving for excellence and, you
know, often academic excellence.

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There's people who are waving
the banger for, for equity.

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There's people who are, you
know, really, you know, focused

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on well-being others who want to
ensure that the schools are

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accountable.
All of those things coexist at

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any given time.
And you know, this, that's

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literally what you deal with on
a daily basis, I imagine, right.

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So the idea that you as the
leader are going to solve that,

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that you're just going to be
able to come in, cut the wheat

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from the chaff and just, you
know, do whatever is it's

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actually, it's just like a
shallow certainty.

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So I would say clarity in this
context, it it's not about

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control, it's about orientation
and it's about making that

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00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,920
thinking visible, you know,
showing people what the guiding

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principles are for the decision
making, letting people

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understand how the trade-offs
are reached, involving all of

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your different stakeholders in
that sense making rather than

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just announcing the the
conclusions to it.

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Now, that doesn't mean that you,
you know, defer your

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00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,080
responsibility.
Leaders are are paid to lead

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that what people do not want is
leaders who just have the mantle

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of leadership, but constantly
are delegating and creating, you

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know, endless discussion forums,
etcetera.

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Because people do want somebody
to come in and say, OK, this is

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the vision, this is what we're
working towards.

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But I think that can be done
whilst also well that the best

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way that's done is when it's
enacted, but in a way that

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people actually see what the
principles are behind that.

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And you know, I've, I've tried
to do that in my sustainability

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work, particularly the world of
sustainability is often about

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ambiguity.
But you know, there's got to be

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purpose, right?
Yeah.

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I think, I think that's kind of,
yeah, that those are my sort of

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overall thoughts on on that.
So you used a phrase before

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00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,760
leadership as a practice of
becoming otherwise.

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Wondering if you can talk a
little bit more about that and

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what that means.
Yeah, I mean, I'm always a

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little bit, you know, careful
around these type of highfalutin

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phrases.
But I think it is important, you

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00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,920
know, you talked about clarity
and leadership.

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People like something which can
speak to a certain reality.

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And I've found that a lot of
people have actually found that

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phrase of becoming otherwise
quite engaging.

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00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:37,600
So I guess it's about the, both
the personal transformation and,

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00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,160
and the collective change,
right?

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And to my mind, those two things
are, are totally inseparable.

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So leadership, which is about
becoming differently, becoming

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00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:53,320
otherwise is about first of all,
understand it's, it's, it's not

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00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:59,760
a position, it's a, a process of
formation and reformation.

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00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:05,680
And on the personal level, it's
about letting yourself evolve

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to, to look at your own habits,
to look at your own assumptions,

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00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:13,520
to look at the attachments that
you've made that maybe once used

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00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,600
to make sense, but now constrain
growth.

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00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:21,040
I mean, in my own life, I, I
found that Stoic philosophy has

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00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,520
been really helpful in that
sense of helping me to sort of

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00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,480
have opportunities to cultivate
that reflexivity to, to think

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00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,960
about, you know, how am I
approaching, how am I showing up

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00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,440
at the collective level?
It's about, you know, as a

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00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,040
leadership change changes their
stance, whether right or wrong,

301
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,120
the whole culture shifts because
we do live in a society and

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00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,360
human need is that we look
towards our leaders.

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00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,720
So, you know, it's not just
about this simple thing of like

304
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,760
our self improvement or, or
changing my, my personality.

305
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:02,120
It's about seeing yourself as
part of a wider system of change

306
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,240
and it's about leading with
people rather than leading over

307
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,200
them.
That's what I would say.

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00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,880
So how do we go about unlearning
some of those bad habits,

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00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,080
perhaps that, you know, keep us
tied to some of those, you know,

310
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,160
structures and cycles and
processes that perhaps aren't as

311
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,880
as helpful as, you know, to
become the types of leaders that

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00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,120
that people want to become?
Well, how do we go about

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00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:33,680
unlearning some of those things?
I think it's about that that

314
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,520
process, right?
Of first of all, having the

315
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:47,800
willingness to see yourself as
in the process of of becoming of

316
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:53,600
understanding that true power
and true positive influence in

317
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,320
the world doesn't come from you
know the title you've you've

318
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,800
gained or the.
Authority that is conferred upon

319
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,360
you by the system that you you
operate in.

320
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:14,160
But true power comes from the
willingness to relate to the

321
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:21,000
world as you are and to see
yourself as someone who is

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00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:27,360
striving and to then see others
as people are also striving.

323
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,800
And it doesn't mean you, you shy
away from the hard decisions

324
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,920
because in reality, those
decisions have to be taken in

325
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,200
order for, you know, the
collective good often or even

326
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,080
the individual good.
But it's about understanding

327
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,920
that if you, especially if you
are wise in your as a leader in

328
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,920
choosing your team, then
hopefully you've chosen people

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00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,280
around you who are on that same
process of becoming.

330
00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,440
And your job is to to nurture
them to become the best they can

331
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:06,600
be and to add their their part
to the to the greater whole.

332
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,640
Interesting.
So I think I, I think through

333
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,440
our conversation we have, I
think some shared, you know,

334
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,960
interest or, or connection to
the concepts of integrity and,

335
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,720
and compassion.
How do you see those as

336
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,160
practical leadership capacities
rather than abstract ideals?

337
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,440
Integrity and compassion.
So, yeah, I mean, integrity, a

338
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,040
lot of what I'm talking about
is, is integrity is the word

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00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,680
that sums it up, right?
Compassion.

340
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,880
These are words that, you know,
often in our culture, they're

341
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,080
like reduced to just just just
be sentiments, right?

342
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,720
He's compassionate.
Oh, he or she has integrity.

343
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,640
But they're not just sentiments,
they're disciplines.

344
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,680
To have integrity is to have a
daily practice of integrity.

345
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,760
To have compassion is to
actually have a daily practice

346
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,840
of fomenting compassion for all
things.

347
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,120
And often that means pushing
yourself to have compassion for

348
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:15,360
those who may be you do not
automatically feel compassion

349
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,840
for.
So, you know, they're not just

350
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,200
abstract stuff though, because
integrity is about is about

351
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,240
alignment, right?
It's about what you say, what

352
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,760
you value, what you do.
You know, in a school, that's,

353
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,120
that's about the decisions, it's
about the language we use,

354
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,440
that's about the policies we
have, the practice we have all

355
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,720
pointing in the same direction.
So integrity and to be seen as

356
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,280
having integrity is absolutely
crucial to positive leadership

357
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:57,040
because people see when word and
action diverge.

358
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,000
It's not about perfection
because I said earlier that it's

359
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,440
totally appropriate for the
leader to stand up and name the

360
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,000
process and even to speak to the
truth of when maybe they haven't

361
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,120
had the level of integrity that
they would want to have.

362
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,080
But it's about having that, that
congruence and trying to bring

363
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,320
those things together.
Compassion's an interesting 1.

364
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:27,400
So I mean, I, I see compassion
about like the idea of it's,

365
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,640
it's giving attention.
So going back to what I was

366
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,560
saying earlier, it's this idea
of giving attention to what

367
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,320
needs to, to be seen, right?
So if I have compassion for you,

368
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:44,680
it's my ability to to see you,
to perceive your experience and

369
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,880
to respond in the right way
proportionally to you.

370
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:54,760
So as a leader, I'm not going to
lower my expectation, but I'm

371
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,560
going to, I'm going to humanize
it.

372
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,440
And I'm going to have compassion
for you as a human.

373
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,360
And I'm going to make you feel
seen.

374
00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:05,960
I'm going to make you feel
valued.

375
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,880
And I'm going to help you to see
that this is a space where where

376
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,520
empathy and and your value is,
is paramount.

377
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,040
Very good.
Now I I saw something the other

378
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,960
day, it talked about someone
referencing a school or an

379
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,920
institution as flourishing.
How is that the same or

380
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,000
different to a school that's
high performing or a high

381
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,880
quality school or a well
regarded school of a school as

382
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,840
flourishing?
Is there a difference and how

383
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,560
would you define that?
Yeah, no, the word flourishing,

384
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,520
you know, it goes all the way
back to, to ancient Greek

385
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,520
philosophy, you know, Aristotle
speak spoke about eudaimonia and

386
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,960
the idea of, of us flourishing.
And the language is very popular

387
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,240
at the moment.
There's organizations such as

388
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,120
the the Harvard Flourish
Network.

389
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,880
We do some really interesting
work looking at flourishing

390
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,560
paradigms.
I've actually got a, a, a book

391
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,520
chapter coming out with
Bloomsbury quite soon, which is

392
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,280
going to be looking at a set of
indicators called the global

393
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,720
flourishing goals.
And my chapter is going to be

394
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,120
looking at how transformative
sustainability education can

395
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,720
enact those, those flourishing
goals.

396
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,200
If anybody's interested, I, I
recommend you, you, you check

397
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,080
out the Harvard stuff.
But I mean, flourishing is

398
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,880
different to performance because
performance is just a metric.

399
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,920
And flourishing is not a metric.
It's an atmosphere.

400
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:45,880
So it's about what does it feel
like to be within complexity?

401
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,960
You know, a flourishing school
it, it doesn't mean it's a

402
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,920
school without difficulty, but
it's a school where there is

403
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:58,840
going to be challenge, but that
lives side by side with meaning.

404
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,880
So, you know, if I'm in a
flourishing school, then I'm

405
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,520
going to feel it in the
corridors.

406
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,320
I'm going to see feel that
curiosity in the classrooms.

407
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,440
I'm going to feel that
generosity in meetings.

408
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,640
I'm going to, you know, listen
in or hear conversations in the

409
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,600
staff room which are really
honest and, and open.

410
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,920
It needs to be practical because
that type of flourishing doesn't

411
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,080
happen when people are are run
down and depleted.

412
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,240
You know, if people are are
exhausted, if people are

413
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,240
alienated, you might get a
performing system, but it won't

414
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,680
be a flourishing system.
And I would say that actually

415
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,240
going back to the original stuff
we're talking about, often we

416
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,240
see institutions, we see schools
which might be high performing,

417
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,400
they might get excellent
results, but actually they're

418
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,600
not flourishing and they're not
helping people within them to

419
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:05,080
flourish or society to flourish.
Because people may come out of

420
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,200
those institutions with, you
know, great grades or, or

421
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,960
whatever, but they might be
really depleted and they might

422
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,800
not have actually found a way to
understand how those grades

423
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,080
connect to any sense of deeper
purpose or, or meeting.

424
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,840
So you know, you've got to look
at everything.

425
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,680
You've got to look at the
timetables, you've got to look

426
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,240
at the workload models, you've
got to look at how many meetings

427
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,320
you're having, the rhythm of
those meetings, the decision

428
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,880
processes.
You know, are they, are they

429
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,920
helping to support people to
function well?

430
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,120
Are they are they not?
But it's not just about how

431
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:44,920
people feel because it's also,
and I think this has come

432
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,440
through in a lot of my answers.
It's it's about and I don't want

433
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,280
to be too heavy-handed, Kevin,
but it's, it's, it's about

434
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,520
morality.
It's, you know, the inner life

435
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,560
of the institution has to match
the outward mission.

436
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,120
So it can't, you know, schools
are very good, like lots of

437
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,280
institutions are putting this
very great information on their

438
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,840
websites, etcetera.
But you've got to ensure that

439
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,480
what's happening inside the
lived experience matches that.

440
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,960
So the leaders need to to to
create the conditions for that.

441
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,040
And they need to, they need to
Createspace.

442
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,360
So you need time for reflection.
They need to recognise people's

443
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:30,440
contributions.
They need to foster staff,

444
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,040
agency, student agency, the
participation of the community.

445
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:41,040
And it's through those things
that an organization becomes a

446
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,240
flourishing organization that's
actually renewing itself and

447
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:53,400
going to have long term vitality
and long term cumulative answer.

448
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,000
This sounds really high for
losing, but like long term

449
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,920
cumulative good for all the
individuals in there and for the

450
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:04,880
society and for the whole world
of which, you know, especially

451
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,800
for schools or any educational
institution, I have a really

452
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,280
important role in forging a
better world.

453
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:20,600
So, yeah, I mean, flourishing is
is a lot more than just yeah,

454
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,560
performance, definitely.
So taking that a couple of steps

455
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,760
further and I guess maybe
focusing now a bit more on

456
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,240
personal practices and and
reflection, what are some

457
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,360
practices and disciplines that
help you to stay grounded in

458
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,960
this more sort of reflective
space and and mode of

459
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,480
leadership?
Yeah, Do you know what?

460
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,480
I am totally honest.
I am still on that journey.

461
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:53,000
Find it always fascinating to
try to sit with myself and see

462
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,600
my own natural energy.
I'm I have very high energy.

463
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,080
I'm very highly motivated,
highly passionate.

464
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,600
I have a busy job, lots of other
projects going on, I've got

465
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,320
family life to manage, et
cetera.

466
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:19,400
But what I do is one of my core
disciplines is to to wake up

467
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,280
early and go to the gym.
I find that that physical

468
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:34,320
exercise and the, that moment of
quiet is really, really

469
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:43,320
important to quieting in my mind
and helping me to think through

470
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,080
a lot of the ideas I have in, in
my mind.

471
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,960
I like dialogue as well.
I don't have huge amounts of

472
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,560
friends like many 42 year old
men, but I have a, a few, you

473
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,120
know, good friends.
And with those good friends, I

474
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,520
like to, to talk about things.
I just read something actually

475
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,080
yesterday about this lady who
just gave up on small talk and

476
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,760
her new approach to like going
to events and stuff was to ask

477
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,960
people more meaningful questions
and then get around the small

478
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,840
talk.
And I actually thought it was

479
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,560
inspired because I, I find small
talk really difficult.

480
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,400
I don't like talking, you know,
if I go to any of these events

481
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,320
and people talk about the
weather or, or anything else, I

482
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,320
find it really difficult to sort
of talk about those things.

483
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,680
And also, I mean, I guess the
last thing is, is nature.

484
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,640
I'm very blessed to live in, in
Surrey.

485
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,760
We have beautiful nature here,
but wherever I've lived in the

486
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,920
world, I've always loved to
connect with nature.

487
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,000
For me, and this goes back to
actually my teaching practice, I

488
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,000
mean, all my work is all about
sustainability and regeneration.

489
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,120
And I'm always talking to people
about how we need to get young

490
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:02,360
people to connect with nature
and that people are never going

491
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:08,000
to care about something that
they don't actually inter

492
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,880
interact with.
So I make an effort to go out

493
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,440
into, into nature, whatever that
means.

494
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,040
Often that means running because
I quite like going for a run.

495
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,880
But yeah, I guess those are
those are the things I, I kind

496
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,240
of do.
I like to you, I mentioned my

497
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,920
music.
You know, I like to, to listen

498
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,120
to music.
I would like to find more time

499
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,560
to play guitar, but that's very
difficult with everything else

500
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,960
going on.
There is only so many hours in

501
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,160
the day, isn't there?
Yeah, exactly.

502
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,560
Exactly.
Can't do it all.

503
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,400
So if you could design A
leadership development programme

504
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,400
from scratch, what would be the
one experience every participant

505
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,520
must have to truly get it as a
part of that?

506
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,200
OK, that's that's a good one.
If I could design A leadership

507
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,480
programme from scratch, what
would everybody, everybody need?

508
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,080
Do you know what everybody
needs?

509
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:09,960
Everybody needs to go into a
system where who they are, what

510
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,600
they are, etcetera isn't
recognized.

511
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:19,920
They can't control it right into
a context where their authority

512
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:26,520
in other places doesn't confer
them any influence there and to

513
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,400
humble themselves.
So, you know, if you are a high

514
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:40,560
flying education leader, let's
say you need to go to a non

515
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,160
affiliated youth board,
something like the City of

516
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,000
London National Environment
Board.

517
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,280
And you used to sit with those
young people and, you know,

518
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:56,920
listen to what they have to say
and understand that in those

519
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,840
spaces, it's all about consensus
and consensus has to has to be

520
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,720
earned.
So, you know, what we found with

521
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:12,480
the youth board often is that
adults often rock up with with a

522
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,600
strategy, right, Which is fine.
You know, they have something

523
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,520
they want to do often, you know,
well meaning, but they often

524
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:25,560
will leave with with questions.
So I think from that, they see

525
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:30,239
that their leadership is it's,
once again, it's not about them

526
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,960
persuading people, it's about
their relationships.

527
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:37,239
So yeah, that's what I would
say.

528
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,199
Everybody, if I was going to
have that leadership program,

529
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:48,199
should have an opportunity to
identify a place where they need

530
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,920
to go into where they wouldn't
have control and live within

531
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,280
that space for a little bit and
see how that influences how they

532
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,120
see what leadership is about and
what they think is important in

533
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,680
terms of how you lead people
together through consensus.

534
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,400
Interesting.
All right, so a couple of quick

535
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,800
questions to wrap things up then
your favorite book on

536
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,000
leadership?
Whoa, my favorite book on

537
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,640
leadership.
Well, I, your, your listeners

538
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,000
are going to hate me for this
one.

539
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:34,960
It's very, very cliche, but I'm
going to say Marcus Aurelius

540
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,160
Meditations.
That is, for me the greatest

541
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:45,760
book on on leadership, which I
always come back to.

542
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,760
Seneca's pretty good as well.
But I, yeah, I like, I like my,

543
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,200
I like my, I, I, I like going
old school, very old school, as

544
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,280
old school as possible, back to
the ancient Greeks.

545
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,440
But Marcus Avellius, he he's
just such a fascinating figure.

546
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,600
And the Meditations are so
insightful.

547
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:11,480
And it's incredible how someone
could have been writing in such

548
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,080
a different paradigm, right,
Kevin?

549
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,880
Such a different time.
But the truths he speaks to are

550
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:26,400
eternal, and if you read it with
an open mind and an open heart,

551
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:32,200
you can get wisdom from there.
So, you know, a lot of Stoics

552
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:38,960
talk about the idea of finding
your mentor and the idea of how

553
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,720
you flourish as an individual is
by identifying mentors in your

554
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:49,280
life Who embody what you believe
flourishing to be, right?

555
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,320
Embody the virtues, embody these
characteristics, but it's not

556
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,360
necessarily that you have to
find them in lived individuals.

557
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,200
You you should try to look for
those people and actually talk

558
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,680
to them.
But you can also find them in in

559
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:08,000
books And you know, Marcus
Aurelius, he's like, I don't

560
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,800
know, he feels like a confidant.
Like I can go back to that book

561
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,120
and I can like, I can't be in
dialogue with him.

562
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,040
Not yet anyway.
I'm sure somebody somewhere has

563
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,240
made some sort of AI Marcus
Aurelius chat bot.

564
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,120
You can chat to chat to Marcus,
but I haven't looked for that

565
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,840
yet.
But yeah, that's, that's the

566
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,720
book that stands out for me.
I would say yeah.

567
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,640
Amazing.
And maybe this this you might

568
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,040
have the same answer to this
question.

569
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,360
A leader, past or present, you
admire.

570
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,960
Wow, I mean, yeah, I mean, I
guess so many people who stand

571
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,360
out.
Wow.

572
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,000
Where do I where do I even
begin?

573
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,160
A leader past for present who I
admire.

574
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,000
I guess I I even though this
this is slightly controversial,

575
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,400
I because obviously his position
was he was a Roman emperor.

576
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:07,480
I do admire Marcus Avenius.
He was a, you know, a

577
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:16,080
fascinating, you know, figure
who did a lot of amazing,

578
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:22,040
amazing things.
There was, there was somebody

579
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,800
actually, I used to live, I used
to live in Peru for a very long

580
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,600
time and for over 10 years, my
wife at Peruvian, my kids were

581
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,960
born in Peru.
And in fact, I would say in many

582
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:39,720
ways, Peru was one of them is
formative parts of what was the

583
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:41,600
most formative part of my my
life.

584
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:47,360
A lot of the lessons I learnt
about who I am, how I think the

585
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,360
world functions, etcetera,
etcetera, come from Peru.

586
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,960
And there were certain figures
that I came to learn about

587
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,440
through popular Peruvian culture
that I found really, really

588
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,760
fascinating.
There's one lady, what's her

589
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:07,120
name, her name, her name is, she
was from this barrio called via

590
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,480
El Salvador.
She was called Maria Lena

591
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,400
Moyana, that's it.
And she was an Afro Peruvian

592
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,960
community organiser and she, she
did a lot of work for, for

593
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,000
women's rights and for fighting
against, against poverty,

594
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:32,360
etcetera, at a time when, well,
society was not, shall we say,

595
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:37,280
not so open to, to 1 giving a
damn about people in poverty and

596
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,960
definitely not giving a damn
about women in poverty and

597
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,400
definitely not giving a damn
about Afro Peruvian women in

598
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,160
poverty.
And her story is really, really

599
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:54,520
inspirational and her her sort
of ceaseless leadership and the

600
00:39:54,520 --> 00:40:02,720
way that she articulated herself
to her community and worked with

601
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:06,360
her community to create a sense
of shared purpose and a sense

602
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,880
of, if you look at her story, a
sense of pride and place right

603
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,280
in who we are and what we can
bring.

604
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,280
It's really humbling.
So yeah, I guess 2 very

605
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,840
different, different characters
there, but both embody

606
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,720
leadership in, to my mind, what
good leadership is all about.

607
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,400
Amazing, All right.
And finally, best advice you've

608
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,520
ever received.
Best advice I've ever received.

609
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,120
My word.
What is the best advice I've

610
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:45,440
ever received?
OK, I'm going to get, I'm going

611
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:45,720
to.
Yeah.

612
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:49,200
OK, I'm going to speak, speak
the truth here, which I didn't

613
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,280
think I'd be talking about this.
I don't usually share these type

614
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,280
of personal things that much,
but sometimes I feel compelled

615
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,680
to do so.
The best advice I ever received

616
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,600
was from my grandma on her
deathbed.

617
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,800
I was 16 years old.
I'd seen my grandma a couple of

618
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,200
weeks before.
She was healthy and happy and

619
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,040
like many old people, older
people, she took a full and she

620
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,040
deteriorated quickly.
So 16 years old.

621
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,120
We drive through the night to
London and we arrived at the

622
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,320
hospital and it's clearly
obvious that my my grandma's

623
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,560
probably not going to say see
the night through.

624
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:43,880
And she quotes Shakespeare to me
and it's almost her final words

625
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,160
were all the world is but a
stage.

626
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,000
And the men and women, many
players, they have their exits

627
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,640
and their entrances and one man
in his time plays many parts.

628
00:41:54,480 --> 00:42:00,440
And I've come to understand that
in many different ways as I've

629
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,640
got older.
I think for a long time, Kevin,

630
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,600
I saw that as being about
performance.

631
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,800
You have to perform these
different roles, right?

632
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,840
But going back to my original
thing I was saying to you about

633
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,360
being self aware and being happy
with the different facets of who

634
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:27,640
you are.
I think the best advice that I

635
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:32,760
ever got was that because it
helped me to understand that we

636
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:38,560
will all play different roles
and we need to code switch into

637
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,680
those different places.
But we need to do that from a

638
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,120
space of authenticity.
And when we are authentically

639
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:52,120
ourselves and we show up with
authenticity and we are willing

640
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,880
to make ourselves vulnerable
with others and show ourselves

641
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,760
as what we what who we are, then
I think that's when the magic

642
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,960
happens.
That's when great stuff happens,

643
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,400
great ideas, great innovations,
great projects, things that

644
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,600
contribute to yeah, to to that,
that word to, to making

645
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,920
everybody flourish.
So yeah, that's the that's the

646
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,800
best advice I ever got from my
grandma.

647
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,000
Well, thanks so much for sharing
that.

648
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,560
I, I, I really appreciate it and
that, that seems like the

649
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,680
perfect place to, to leave it.
So look, thank you so much for,

650
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,320
for joining me today, Simon.
It's been lovely to chat with

651
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,360
you and thank you so much.
That's been such a pleasure.

652
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,160
Thank you so much, Kevin.
I really appreciate the

653
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,400
opportunity.
Thanks so much for listening to

654
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:37,960
the episode.
If you enjoyed this

655
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,240
conversation, don't forget to
subscribe, like, follow, et

656
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:43,600
cetera.
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657
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,760
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658
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:52,000
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659
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,760
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